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Wikileaks -- Israel keeps Gaza "on brink of economic collapse."

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by civver_764, Jan 8, 2011.

  1. BasketCase

    BasketCase Username sez it all

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    Did I say it was? No. Although I did say I don't give a crap. Fact remains that Egypt is also blockading Gaza. And guess what, there's a proper way to refer to a spade. The correct word you use is "spade".
     
  2. Maimonides

    Maimonides Emperor

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    Indeed. All we have so far is pages of posts by posters who have never been there & hardly know anything about the situation.

    The big problem with all the Israel/Palestine threads is that there is so much anger, misinformation & irrationality that no coherent discussion can be had.
     
  3. Archbob

    Archbob Ancient CFC Guardian

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    Wow, the Israelies are fighting terrorism with terrorism, they actually want to actually have a chance of really winning, unlike us.

    If the Israelies tried to fight a nice war, their nation wouldn't even exist by now.

    You know why they even control that land now?

    Oh wait, thats right, its because the muslim countries decided in the past to declare war on them twice because they wanted to push Israel into the sea. They lost the war. You start and war and lose, you have to live with the consequences.

    You really think those Muslim countries wouldn't declare war on Israel again if given the chance? Get real.
     
  4. SKILORD

    SKILORD Insurgent

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    Yes, but the Israelis started it when they invaded and evicted an entire nation, so it would be more accurate to say that Palestine is the one fighting terror with the same. And it's not a winning fight. It's a long, attrition driven struggle. Why do it when we could talk it out? Neither state should be considered a role model.
     
  5. Takhisis

    Takhisis Free Hong Kong

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    So you're basically saying that terrorism is allowable if someone else's done it first, Fallen Angel lord. Great! Then how about Ben Gurion and other SOBs bombing out British and Arab officers? What about Brit HaKanaim? Irgun? Lehi? Haganah? Palmah?
     
  6. Archbob

    Archbob Ancient CFC Guardian

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    The UN kind of created Israel. And we can go back and forth about who the land really belongs to, because its been conquered and re-conquered again in history.

    You can't fight terrorism with nice warfare because it doesn't work. Our war in Iraq and Afghanistian should of told you that.

    You either fight fire with fire or you fold up and die. Thats the reality of it. Israel borders several states whose governments sponsor terrorism against them. It'd be like if Canada was sponsoring terrorism against the United States. I believe the US would go to war with Canada if they were blatantly sponsoring terrorism against American cities. Neither side is really willing to talk in this situation and you know it. Even if Israel were to surrender Gaza, the muslim countries in that area would just come back in a few years and try to attack Israel again, its not like they haven't done it several times in the past.

    You can't "side" with either Israel or Palestine based on some moral high ground, because neither side has that. The US basically supports Israel because they are our political allies.
     
  7. Tee Kay

    Tee Kay Silly furry

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    Oh wow, it's all so simple! Like every conflict ever! It's not a biased or crippingly oversimplified version of events at all! And thank you for reminding us short-sighted folks that, again like in all conflicts, hatred is eternal.
     
  8. Archbob

    Archbob Ancient CFC Guardian

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    It may not be eternal but its lasted thousands of years in that region of the world. That region of the world will forever be entrenched in War, until you can remove the theocracies from power. Even before Israel was there, its not like the Muslim nations weren't busy squabbling and fighting with each other. The fight between Sunnis and Shiites is pretty well documented.

    Look at the maps of Israeli territory when it was formed and before and after the 2 wars that the Muslim countries declared on Israel. Its pretty clear cut that Israel expanded each time after the 2 wars the Muslim countries declared on them because they won the war.

    You'd have to be pretty Naive if you think the Muslim countries would really leave Israel alone if they gave up Palestine.
     
  9. SKILORD

    SKILORD Insurgent

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    The thing we should have learned from Iraq and Afghanistan is that fighting conventional war against states is not an effective way to handle terrorism.

    But this is exactly the strategy pursued by Israel, invade, occupy, blockade, all the tools of traditional war, the only difference is the viciousness with which they do it.

    Why the hell would I care who has divine right to the land, I'm just saying that some people were living there, a bunch of foreigners showed up and told them to leave and that furthermore they were taking all of the holy sites. My point is that this particular UN funded maneuver was morally indefensible.

    You can't fight terror with terror, if you become a terrorist then terrorists are sure to win. Democratic peoples should not be driven by fear, fear our fellow man and his political goals is against the spirit of democracy.
     
  10. Archbob

    Archbob Ancient CFC Guardian

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    We fought a nice conventional War. Back in the ancient days, they fought total and mean conventional wars as in burn and slaughter everything in your path.

    We can't do that today so realistically, there's no way we can win there for the American troops.

    If Israel were as nice as us, they wouldn't exist right now. They do what they do to keep the surrounding nations at bay.

    What would the US do if bordering country's governments actively sponsored terrorism against it?

    Because thats what Israel faces right now.

    And realistically, the Arabs didn't control the territory before Israel was formed either, it was under British rule from 1917-1948 and was under Ottomon rule before that, and Mamluk rule before that. There has been a Jewish state movement are Jerusalem for hundreds of years because at many times during its history, the city itself composed majority of Jews.
     
  11. Tee Kay

    Tee Kay Silly furry

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    It did? How come after a thousand years Jews and Christians, vastly outnumbered by Muslims living in Muslim theocracies, even survived as strong, distinct communities at all?
     
  12. SKILORD

    SKILORD Insurgent

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    This conversation has no hope of being productive, but do I wish you well. I do not hold you in any way accountable for the situation in Palestine, but it does make me sad that this sort of mentality is as pervasive as it is. Blood won't wash off blood.
     
  13. Archbob

    Archbob Ancient CFC Guardian

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    Right now its because of the influence of the Westernized nations that prevent most of the stuff from happening. That area of the world was really never under Muslim rule and its been bitterly fought over. Its been under European rule or European influence before it became Israel. Those governments and influences would have prevented much of the anti-everything-that-is-not-muslim actions there.

    Its hard to really eradicate a whole group of people. The minority religions in the past probably operated somewhat like the Underground Church Operates in China today. Oppressed but allowed to survive.

    Having the support of greater power does give you favors, you should know that. And in countries like Egypt, non Muslim people are discriminated against in a lot of public offices and places. You ID in many of those countries shows your religion.
     
  14. Tee Kay

    Tee Kay Silly furry

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    Explain.

    Check your facts please.

    It was for part of the time. It still doesn't make the above statement less ridiculous.

    There was a time when Whitey was not Mighty. In fact for a fair bit of the last millennium and a half.
     
  15. Bast

    Bast Protector of Cats

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    Good! Considering that Israel is always constantly under threat of terrorism from this Gaza population, this seems more than fair.

    You would respond in worse ways if you know that your loved ones are threatened. If a country like China was Israel instead, Gaza would've been razed like 40 years ago.

    :rolleyes:
     
  16. Tani Coyote

    Tani Coyote Son of Huehuecoyotl

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    I honestly don't care about who the land belongs to, since chances are enough people have been born there on both sides both have claims to it. So, onto the topic at hand:

    So Israel continues its role as the most morally-ambiguous democracy in the world.

    Personally I'd like to stop all forms of aid to Israel - an alliance against foreign invasion is perhaps the most we should give - and let them sort their crap out. I'd like a one-state solution, but it will be a while before both leaderships don't have the all or nothing approach they do now.
     
  17. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    I can't count the number of times I've been abused for something done by someone else, and then turned into a nicer person.

    All the people who're pro-"twisting the screws" should remember that twisting the screws has never worked. Genocide has worked, but we're not going to DO genocide. And hoping that the "twisting of the screws" will be similar to genocide is ... sick. What has worked, historically, time and again, is that people have increased levels of civility intentionally, despite the barbarians. And, what's happened is that the proportion of barbarians to civility decreased. And then the number of barbarians has decreased.

    "Twisting the screws" doesn't work. And what it does is allow you to created cognitive defense systems that ignore the suffering of innocent people.
     
  18. civver_764

    civver_764 Deity

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    Everything you just said is false.
     
  19. BurnEmDown

    BurnEmDown Emperor

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    Some of the people here said that the Zionists in the 20th century just came and drove off the Arabs. That is completely wrong, they bought the lands from the Arabs, the Arabs willingly sold those lands, after a while the Arabs realized that the Zionists just keep on coming and buying more lands, so at first the leaders of Arabic communities tried to persuade their people to stop selling lands to Jews. At first, it didn't work, but after a few years, the rest of the Arab community in Palestine realized it as well, that's when the conflict started, in the 20's and 30's.
     
  20. civver_764

    civver_764 Deity

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    Most of the land was sold by absentee land owners, actually. The people actually living there didn't have much a say.

    The Jews only bought a small percentage of what they obtained in 1948 anyways. And it's not like their ultimate intention(ethnic cleansing) was unclear to the Arab people.
     

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