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Wikileaks -- Israel keeps Gaza "on brink of economic collapse."

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by civver_764, Jan 8, 2011.

  1. AL_DA_GREAT

    AL_DA_GREAT amour absinthe révolution

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    Israel is a terror state that has no limits to what it will do to further its own intrest. This doesn't surprise me the least.
     
  2. BurnEmDown

    BurnEmDown Emperor

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    So? It's not like the Jews stole the land, they bought it from its legal owners.

    They bought almost 11% of the land in Israel, the UN resolution gave them that land, plus just a tiny bit around those lands so they could be connected and that there wouldn't be too many gaps in their state's territory, plus the Negev, the big desert in the south that encompasses almost half of Israel's territory. The Jews were given this land so they can settle all the refugees of WW2 and other future Jewish immigrants there, the Negev wasn't owned by anyone, but the Jews did have just a few minor settlements there.
    The Jews never intended to ethnically cleanse the Arab population. They gladly gave the Arabs the right to vote and run for elections from the first day of Israel's creation, even though it was attacked by 5 Arab countries. Ben Gurion has said many times that he wishes to cooperate with Israel's neighbors, and that is also written in Israel's declaration of independence.
     
  3. MobBoss

    MobBoss Off-Topic Overlord

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    I dont think there is very many more extreme than Hamas there. Sure, the population can indeed vote for the status quo and keep the situation as it is, because an 'extreme response' to Israel has been so successful so far, right?

    Right.
     
  4. Tee Kay

    Tee Kay Silly furry

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    56% of British Palestine counts as tiny bits? Even if you discount the Negev, Israel still ended up with more than twice the land Jewish settlers actually own.

    45% of the population of the UN-allocated Jewish zone was Arab. 1% of the population of the Arab zone was Jewish.

    If so, then the massacres, the bombing and shelling of Arab quarters, the denial of reentry for Arabs fleeing the battlefield after the war, those sent a wrong message.

    There are. Hamas, as extremist terrorist organizations go anyway, is pretty mild. They have to be, since they're trying to make themselves mainstream, and their political wing is a major political force, so they have been reining in their most extreme elements.
     
  5. GamezRule

    GamezRule Inconceivable!

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    Which one is the organized one, Hamas or Hezbollah?
     
  6. Tee Kay

    Tee Kay Silly furry

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    Both. Hamas is active in Palestine, especially Gaza, but its leadership is in exile in Syria; it's an extremist Islamist organization with a Palestinian nationalist flavor founded as an alternate to the secular Fatah (and as a result was given quiet support by Israel for years in a bid to sow discord in the Palestinian ranks). Hezbollah is primarily active in Lebanon, founded a few years earlier than Hamas, during the Civil War to resist Israeli Invasion of Lebanon, and subsequently attempted to take over the country.

    Both have both political and military arms, essentially making them states-within-states. Both are anti-Zionist and their rhetoric takes them into anti-Semetic territory. Compared to Hamas, Hezbollah seems to be presenting themselves as more moderate and have adopted a more "mainstream" approach, and they have MPs in Lebanon's parliament. Hezbollah is also a primarily Shia organization, and doesn't really get along with the Sunnis in Lebanon. Hamas on the other hand follows Sunni doctrine; its alliance with secular Syria (led by a Shia) and Shia-theocratic Iran is more political expediency rather than ideological similarities.
     
  7. MobBoss

    MobBoss Off-Topic Overlord

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    Dude, they threw their political rivals off building tops. How more extreme can you get?
     
  8. Tee Kay

    Tee Kay Silly furry

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    Hang, draw and quarter them in public and catapult the corpses in the general direction of Israeli kindergartens?
     
  9. GamezRule

    GamezRule Inconceivable!

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    You mean like Britain used to!
     
  10. NedimNapoleon

    NedimNapoleon Weird Little Human

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    I like the Hamas show future pioneers, a guy in a mouse suite teaches children how to use a AK-47 and how to kill the Jews :D :D :D :D :D :D :D thats how extreme they are
     
  11. GamezRule

    GamezRule Inconceivable!

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    :dance:

    That's how we do it in Russia! :lol:
     
  12. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    Of course, the Israelis do nothing similar with their own children.


    Link to video.


    Link to video.

    Indeed.
     
  13. Archbob

    Archbob Ancient CFC Guardian

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    Each side basically does what it sees as necessary to survive. Its stupid to support either Israel or Palestine for any moral reason. Neither one of them have moral high ground.

    Nothing short of divine intervention will help that part of the world. You do them better by praying instead of trying to convince people to be peaceful.
     
  14. Brian Shanahan

    Brian Shanahan Permanoob

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    Yeah the Daily Fail a title which has been repeatedly caught out deliberately lying to suit it's own agenda. They're not biased at all, they just make stuff up because they're too lazy. And I wouldn't be too sure of Mr. Hitchens' journalistic skills or integrity if I were you either.
     
  15. Brian Shanahan

    Brian Shanahan Permanoob

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    FAL I'm assuming you're American, if not apologies (you'll see why in a minute). The way I see the Israel-Palestine situation is analogous to the situation in Ireland prior to 1921. In 1919 the United Kingdom were immorally occupying Ireland (if not illegally at the time), despite the clear wishes of the Irish people for independance. A war was started over it, which ended up as a bloody stalemate, with Ireland getting most of what it wanted. The same situation (mostly) occoured in the United States in the 1770's (then the Thirteen Colonies), a bloody war ensued where the US got most of what it wanted.

    Israel today is in the position of the UK in those two conflicts, it is the immoral occupier of land where the people don't want it. In fact it is worse the occupation is grossly illegal and has been for the last 50 years. So to my mind the Palestinians have every right to rebel and fight the occupying forces for their freedoms. Otherwise there is no way I could justify the Irish and American wars of independance without being a massive hypocrite.

    Now don't get me wrong, I don't like Hamas, and I wouldn't trust them or Fatah as far as I could throw them, but Hamas are the democratically elected majority party of the Palestinian state, thus entitled to form a government and to take whatever steps they deem approrpriate to protect the integrity of Palestine. Israel on the other hand are occupying a foreign county and have no right to take any action within Palestine until they make a full withdrawl to at least the 1967 borders, frankly I believe it should be the initial 1948 borders which would be enforced.

    Also I believe that the only reason why the international community has not intervened on the side of the Palestinians is because Israel has been pulling the Holocaust card at every opportunity, if this were two countries in Africa or Eastern Europe I'm sure there would be task forces galore going in under UN mandates trying (probably incompetently) to stop Israeli actions. Funny though, isn't it, that the only lesson Israel has learned from the Holocaust is how to treat people like as if they were some lower form of life fit to be wiped out.
     
  16. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    "Legal" and "rightful" are, I would suggest, distinct concepts.

    Also, can we please refer to them as "Zionists", and not "Jews"? The former are a particular sub-set of the latter, one not even equivalent to "Jewish Israelis", given the number of Israelis descended from Mizrahi and Sephardi refugees who never really wanted to be there in the first place.
     
  17. Mr. Dictator

    Mr. Dictator A Chain-Smoking Fox

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    Free market fans defending Israel distorting the market for political gain?

    Delicious.
     
  18. Archbob

    Archbob Ancient CFC Guardian

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    No see, the Arabs never "owned" Jerusalem and are not somehow "immorally occupying" the land. The area around Jersalem has been fought over forever. Before Israel, it was the British empire, before that, it was the Ottommon Empire. The Arabs have not controlled that Area for 900 years. When they did control it -- guess what? They conquered it. They don't have any more moral "right" over the land than anyone else. Jerusalem is also the ancient homeland of the Jewish people. The Arabs haven't ruled that land since 1099 and really have no more claim over it than the Jews.

    Within Jerusalem itself, since the 1800s and maybe even before(I don't know the numbers before then), Jews have been the majority of the population. Jerusalem, if not the other territory should be Jewish.

    Israel as originally mandated by the UN was tiny, it was the fault of the Arabs around them to start 2 wars which they lost and subsequently lost more land.

    Sorry, but if you start a war and lose, then there are severe consequences. Loss of land is one of them. You can't expect to initiate 2 wars, lose, and not lose anything.

    Israel did not attack its Muslim Neighbors once it was established. They were the ones that were attacked and twice. I have no doubt in my mind that if Israel goes soft, they will be attacked again.
     
  19. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    The populace and state are two distinct things, FAL. Hence, nationalism.
     
  20. Archbob

    Archbob Ancient CFC Guardian

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    Within the actual city of Jerusalem, the Arabs couldn't claim either one, well before Israel became a state.


    If they had just left Israel alone after it was created, Israel would be much smaller than it is today. But when you declare that you won't rest until Israel no longer exists , that doesn't work for negotiations.


    I don't personally have any interest in either side. And I have no delusions that there will be any chance of peace anytime soon unless there's divine intervention. The countries around Israel aren't going to stop trying to destroy Israel until it doesn't exist anymore and the Isaelis aren't going to just shrivel up and die.
     

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