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Wikileaks: New Evidence That US Troops May Have Massacred Iraqi Civilians

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Formaldehyde, Sep 1, 2011.

  1. naterator

    naterator Bravely running away

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    Who is that someone exactly? Vague pronouns only stoke the suspicions of conspiracy theorists.
     
  2. MobBoss

    MobBoss Off-Topic Overlord

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    Various levels of command of course, thru the DoD itself and upwards to the POTUS. Typically something like this is investigated by a team from another command as opposed to the one involved in the incident.
     
  3. Tani Coyote

    Tani Coyote Son of Huehuecoyotl

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    Sometimes soldiers do horrible things. This is why we court martial them.

    Incidents like this probably aren't investigated (publicly) because it would hurt the image of the USA. At most, I'd hope the perpetrators are quickly and privately court martialed, letting justice be served without endangering objectives.

    Letting the Iraqis know and publicly apologising to them seems like a good idea at first, but people, regardless of geography or social status, always find it easier to feel anger than to forgive.
     
  4. naterator

    naterator Bravely running away

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    So, the military is watching the military then? Be sure to tell us if you're guilty then, thanks.
     
  5. Dreadnought

    Dreadnought Deity

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    War is hell.
     
  6. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

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    Incidents like this are precisely the very thing that give the USA a bad image!

    On the contrary, these allegations should be publicly acknowledged, openly investigated, and (if found guilty) the accused should be sentenced in an Open court. When things happen behind veils of secrecy only bad can come of it.

    Even if - and that's a monster of an 'if' - justice is served in private courts martial there will always be resentment and suspicion on the part of those wronged. But when people can see a process they are much more likely to feel satisfied with the outcome - even if they disagree with that outcome.

    The problem with this is that people are routinely promoted to keep them quiet. Look at McChrystal: He was implicated in the cover-up of the Tillman episode yet was promoted anyway. I'm not at all familiar with other events in the military, but I have read a bit about stuff like this happening at the FBI and CIA: Supervisors who screw up, then cover up their errors by implicating those below them, are promoted on up the chain. This is an organizational principle that keeps all the ducks in a row... quietly.

    There is nothing conspiratorial about this - it's an all-too-common feature of large organizations. There is no reason at all to think the military would be any different, and quite a few reason to think it might actually be worse.
     
  7. Dachs

    Dachs Hero of the Soviet Union

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    I kept thinking that the article was talking about Rafer Alston and it confused me
     
  8. MobBoss

    MobBoss Off-Topic Overlord

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    Not how it works, and like I said, the police have their own internal affairs branch dont they? Thats still 'part' of the police; but still a separate entity solely tasked to investigate officer wrongdoing.

    Actually, no, they simply arent 'routinely' promoted to keep them quiet. Thats part of the conspiracy theory attitude that permeates this problem terribly. You need to know that a guy of McChrystals rank requires senate confirmation in order to get promoted and faces intense scrutiny by congress. Yeah...the civilians. So to allege he was promoted just to keep his mouth shut is just flat out incorrect.

    And while you say 'there is nothing conspiratorial about this' thats absolutely untrue - its PRECISELY conspiratorial. It fits the precise definition of that.
     
  9. Tani Coyote

    Tani Coyote Son of Huehuecoyotl

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    It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. If we keep it secret, things go to Hell when it's revealed. If you publicly acknowledge it, people are still gonna be furious. It's easier to punish than to forgive, that and people are just irrational.

    A couple of rogue troops doing this somehow is easily sold as America as a whole doing it, and bam, this openness just swelled the numbers of our foes.

    It's a complete mess, and neither secrecy or openness exactly works well. Secrecy is chosen because what you isn't known won't hurt the troops.

    We always hold the government responsible for things outside its control. At home, we blame the government for the economy. Abroad, the government is blamed for a soldier going rogue.
     
  10. AL_DA_GREAT

    AL_DA_GREAT amour absinthe révolution

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    There have been many cases of NATO troops engaging in sick activities in other people's countries. Abu Ghraib, the film of the murder of the al jazeera journalist from a helicopter, numerous stories of soldiers cutting off body parts as tokens, Troops saying combat is better than sex, kill squads that murder suspects with out trial, mercenaries massacring people and now this. It is the tip of an ice berg.
     
  11. Xanikk999

    Xanikk999 History junkie

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    You can't use the excuse that civilian casualties like this are inevitable in war.

    The fact of the matter is these soldiers hand cuffed civilians who were already unarmed INCLUDING children and executed them.

    I am pretty sure thats a war crime to execute children or anyone for that matter after they surrender. Even if its an illegal combatant you can't just kill detained people indiscrimately.
     
  12. GamezRule

    GamezRule Inconceivable!

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    We are at war. When one is at war, bad things tend to happen. It doesn't make it any less terrible, but it's true.
     
  13. MobBoss

    MobBoss Off-Topic Overlord

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    Spin is spin. The reporter simply wasnt 'murdered' and in fact, was in the company of armed men in an area where insurgents had been attacking american convoys. He was killed largely because the helicopter crew mistook his boom lens camera that he was pointing at them while crouched behind a building looked like an RPG.

    And fwiw, Abu Graib wasnt a cover up, but rather it was a soldier that came forth with the evidence to make the arrests and convictions in that case.

    Also, those involved in the 'kill squad' issue are in jail awaiting court martial right now.

    This isnt the tip of an ice berg. Its barely a good glass of ice cubes.

    No, its not been found to be a 'fact' at all. It is still an allegation and nothing more.

    Lets at least get the 'facts' surrounding this story accurate. :rolleyes:
     
  14. Tani Coyote

    Tani Coyote Son of Huehuecoyotl

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    Indeed, the most we can hope for is we put all who perpetrate these crimes behind bars.

    Soldiers are sent overseas to further their nation's interest. They do this by:

    -Destroying sources of armed opposition
    -Providing security in areas where the police are lacking
    -Training the military of our allies
    -Providing a variety of services when they are not in active combat

    I don't see butchering civilians anywhere on there. Any soldier who willfully murders civilians is a disgrace to our military, our nation, and humanity as a whole.
     
  15. Ooovis

    Ooovis Chieftain

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    When was the last time America was not in a state of war?
     
  16. GamezRule

    GamezRule Inconceivable!

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    Umm, 2000?
     
  17. MobBoss

    MobBoss Off-Topic Overlord

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    Well, how far do you desire to extend that logic? If the military cant watch itself, then neither can the pollice force (although it does), nor should say, Californians watch Californians (etc. etc.), or by further extension, Americans watch Americans as they are completely untrustworthy.

    So who then would you deem adequate, knowledgeable and unbiased enough to watch the military?
     
  18. Tani Coyote

    Tani Coyote Son of Huehuecoyotl

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    The United States has technically never been at war since Japan's defeat at the end of World War II.

    Though our last time of peace (that is, no active military engagements) was 2000, prior to the war in Afghanistan. That period of peace had lasted about a decade since the end of the Gulf.

    It ultimately comes down to how literally/formally one defines war, but going by active engagements, we were mostly at peace in the 90s.

    Though how far does one extend it? Even if it's not a true military engagement, we probably have CIA involvement in many foreign territories.
     
  19. Cheezy the Wiz

    Cheezy the Wiz Socialist In A Hurry

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    Combat degrades the human mind. It destroys all mental barriers that society spends a life time to create. I don't see why you're surprised that a dehumanizing practice produces inhumane events like this.

    And when they do happen, the people responsible should be held responsible. If it did happen, I'm neither surprised that it did, nor that they tried to cover it up. Americans soldiers are people just like any other, and if I were the one responsible for something horrible like this, I'd most certainly not step up and say "oh, by the way, we gave a bunch of civilians summary executions the other day."
     
  20. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    I think there is a distinct difference between dehumanizing events and the cold-blooded murder of civilians. This appears to be another My Lai only on a smaller basis. And no, I'm not surprised in the least.

    It also calls into question all the other incidents which were similarly glossed over and excused by the military.

    I agree the US should thoroughly investigate these cases. And it is clear we certainly can't trust the military to do so based on the past, yet nothing is done to create an independent commission to do so. They continue to be allowed to cover up the truth in such incidents, as they did in My Lai and similar cases in WWII. And the credibility of the nation directly suffers for it, because we aren't really fooling anybody but other Americans and a few others from other countries who are apparently willing to believe just about anything.
     

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