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Will Arabia be in the game?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Sunchro, Jun 26, 2016.

  1. Felis Renidens

    Felis Renidens Prince

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    If the "new civ" is just another African civ, replacing an African civ from previous games (Like Songhai instead of Mali) I'd be somewhat disappointed. Putting a different civ in the Sub-Saharan slot is nothing new.
     
  2. Liex

    Liex King

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    I think that's exactly what the "new civs" will be. One replacement for Songhai and one replacement for Siam. The Iroquois may be replaced by another NA tribe, but I think they'll just exclude them in favor of the Inca.

    I doubt we'll see Brazil in the expansions, let alone in the base game. For South America, I think we'll get the Inca or nothing at all.
     
  3. Dehumanizer

    Dehumanizer Chieftain

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    Not just for the history of Judaism. Also, I never said that it was "the most important Civilization of the area". However I still believe it should be included.

    1) The same is true for Dido of Carthage. I don't see a problem in picking "fictional" characters.
    2) I don't know what you mean by a "history book". Bible is just another source historians have, that can be compared with other sources. Just because it has religious component (bias) to it, doesn't mean that it should be dismissed.

    Agree.
    I think that the religious component, the fact that it heavily influenced the world, is enough to have them in the game. Again, not necessarily in vanilla.

    Anyway, that's indeed an off-topic.
     
  4. Scaramanga

    Scaramanga Brickhead

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    Yes, and a city-state makes the most sense because then it is not suggesting any ownership of it by anyone, the flow of the game will take care of that.
     
  5. AriochIV

    AriochIV Colonial Ninja

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    Well, any "new" civ has to be something like that. What are you hoping for? Atlantis? :D
     
  6. Ezumiyr

    Ezumiyr Warlord

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    The Bible is more comparable to the Iliad or the epics of Gilgamesh. It's more a source for literature studies, and even if it actually gives some historical informations, it tells us more about the history of representations and things like that. It's not just like if it were a biased history book : the difference between myth and logos (which lead to what we call history) didn't existed yet when the Bible was written.

    There were indeed some fictional characters in Civ (Dido, Gilgamesh, but also Joan of Arc to some extent) and I generally don't like them very much but I guess it's a matter of taste. I don't see it as categorical impediment, though, it's just one more argument to support the idea that an Israel civ is quite hard to model in Civ6 :
    - only famous leaders are mythical (comparable to Sumer)
    - not many written sources for history, and essentially from one book (comparable to old Mycenians)
    - almost only religious signifiance (comparable to the Copts)
    - political issues (I'm sure it will cause problems with some muslim countries) (comparable to Tibet)


    Good point. Didn't have the numbers in mind.
     
  7. Morningcalm

    Morningcalm Keeper of Records

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    How is Joan of Arc "to some extent" fictional?

    And no, Israel being in the game won't/shouldn't cause problems with Muslim countries that would actually affect the game-playing populace. David is a prophet in Islam and most acknowledge Israel exists. True, some Middle Eastern governments want to destroy Israel, but do we really want those people playing Civ?

    Israel is a much requested civilization and if they are adding religious victory to the game, Israel is as essential as Arabia to the game.
     
  8. Schuesseled

    Schuesseled Deity

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    Well I for one am hoping for Atlantis. Pompeii was a myth to people for a long time as well.
     
  9. Krajzen

    Krajzen Deity

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    Until there is any credible evidence for the existence of Atlantis, it has no place in civ series, maybe civ is only inspired by real history but its not total fantasy yet.
     
  10. SMcM

    SMcM Emperor

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    Moderator Action: This is a discussion forum, not a picture forum. Picture only posts are considered spam.
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
  11. Zaarin

    Zaarin Chief Medical Officer, DS9

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    I'd just like to point out that Dido definitely existed, Gilgamesh almost certainly existed, and Joan of Arc definitely existed. (And you didn't mention him, but Hiawatha almost certainly existed too.) ;) Dido probably didn't throw herself into a pyre pining over the founder of Rome, Gilgamesh didn't go off on a grand quest to the land of the gods in search of immortality (at least not literally), but they did exist and Dido did rule in Carthage and Gilgamesh did rule in Ur. As for whether Joan of Arc really met with saints, that's hardly relevant for the rest of her story, which we can be as reasonably certain of as anything else in the Hundred Years' War. Not that she ever led France or even, really, the armies of France.
     
  12. manim

    manim Chieftain

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    while i dont personally believe that israel in any way should be harmed or destroy or anything but i do live in one of those countries and i do play civ alot
    as for the thread topic ,atleast some civ must be in the game to represent Arabs and the impact they had on the wolrd
     
  13. True_Candyman

    True_Candyman Emperor

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    I think Arabia is a fantastic civ to add religiously as its a perfect example of how a political entity can spread a religion. Islam is now such a huge religion, and that's largely based in the early expansiveness of Arabia.

    But Arabia is so much more than just a religious empire as well. A hugely wealthy trading civ, a civ that made huge developments in science and maths on a par with Greece really. And a culture that's influenced empires in the region for almost 2000 years now. They are a perfect embodiment of the kinda all rounder empire that should be in civ, and I would be surprised and a little disappointed if they don't make it. Fortunately, I'm 100% sure they'll at least be in by the first expansion.

    And to address the elephant in the room, if you wanna discuss Israel, please make a separate thread, this is ridiculous now and genuinely it's difficult to follow meaningful conversation about Arabia.
     
  14. Felis Renidens

    Felis Renidens Prince

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    Well, it's more like don't promise something new and then give the same things. They might have replaced a European civ with a non-european one. But then, Vanilla 5 had Ottomans which I did not see before, so maybe there is room for hope?


    I'd prefer those people channeling their desires to destroy my country through civ games. Much safer for all involved IMO.
     
  15. Zaarin

    Zaarin Chief Medical Officer, DS9

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    Try 1300. The Arabs were significant traders of balsam and incense, but beyond that they were a collection of rather insignificant tribal pastoralists before the rise of Islam. Culturally they were borrowers; pre-Islamic Arabian religion was a mixture of Judaism, Christianity, and Iranian religions (including Zoroastrianism, but mostly pre-Zoroastrian Iranian paganism). The Arabs only became a significant force in the region, culturally or politically, after the Islamic conquest. As of 2000 years ago, the dominant regional powers in the Middle East were Rome, Sassanid Persia, Parthia, and Armenia (which, if I recall correctly, was a satrapy of Persia at the time).
     
  16. Felis Renidens

    Felis Renidens Prince

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    But then, what were the Americans 2000 years ago? 1300 years ago?
     
  17. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

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    IMO Arabia and Persia are both essential. I like the inclusion of the Ottomans too, of course, but not if it's a hypothetical choice of two among those three.
     
  18. True_Candyman

    True_Candyman Emperor

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    His point isn't that they aren't worthy because they are 'only' 1300 years old, his point was to show my liberal rounding upwards of years :p

    1300 years is of course still a very long time. But the Arabs have only borrowed from Judaism, Christianity, Zoroastrianism, Rome, Persia etc in the same way they all 'borrowed' from what was before too. History is literally just gradual boring change punctuated by occasional periods of mass slaughter and knowledge loss and the very occasional individual brilliance that ignites something new. So I don't really accept this as a reason to put down their cultural impact. They successfully managed to conquer and implant their culture across new lands so much that they had caliphates springing up claiming to be successors in Cairo, in Iraq, in Syria, in Turkey etc. I see that as an enormous achievement on a parallel with Rome to Byzantium, HRE etc and Persia and China with their million billion dynasties.

    It's got cultural staying power (or successful propaganda in modern parlance) that's lasted through hundreds of generations to create not just a huge empire but a continuing one through its offshoots and successors. :goodjob:
     
  19. Zaarin

    Zaarin Chief Medical Officer, DS9

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    Yes, this.

    My point was that Pre-Islamic Arabia was neither culturally nor politically significant. They were important merchants of exotic goods, but they made no unique contributions to culture like the Egyptians, Persians, or Babylonians did, and politically they were literally a non-entity, being an assortment of tribes and city-states. Indeed, the major players in Pre-Islamic Arabia weren't even Arabic speakers: the major players in the Arabian Peninsula were the Old South Arabian states like Saba. I'm certainly not discounting the importance of Islamic Arabia; the Islamic civilization has indeed had a deep impact on the 1300 years of their existence, making profound original contributions to culture, philosophy, science, politics--and the suddenness of their transformation makes their achievements all the more impressive. But before the rise of Islam, Arabia was even less worth noting than Israel compared to the major players in the region. On which note, I think Saba could actually be a really interesting inclusion. Unfortunately, the vowel qualities of Sabaean are unknown, and unless you want to go with the Queen of Sheba we'd probably be hard pressed to select a ruler.
     
  20. Felis Renidens

    Felis Renidens Prince

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    Perhaps as a City State? Then you don't need to worry about a leader or dialect, only type (probably merchantile, I guess) and an interesting special bonus (no idea here).
     

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