1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Will Hitler be seen in a more positive way in the far future?

Discussion in 'World History' started by christos200, Jul 26, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. christos200

    christos200 Never tell me the odds

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2011
    Messages:
    12,060
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    EU, Greece, Athens
    Many conquerors who killed millions of people, like Caesar or Genghis Khan, are admired now and people see them as heroes. This is because a lot of time has passed and no one is directly affected by their massacres. People who lived during the ages of Caesar or Genghis Khan and who were affected directly by their massacres viewed them as villains, but now many people admire them. Also, while Hitler lost in the end, Napoleon also lost but now he is admired by many, even thought many Europeans and Americans at his time viewed him as a villain.

    So, do you believe that in 100 or more years from now Hitler could be seen in a more positive way?
     
  2. Plotinus

    Plotinus Philosopher Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2003
    Messages:
    16,817
    Location:
    Somerset
    I doubt many people see Genghis Khan as a hero. And I doubt all that many people see Caesar as one, although perhaps he's complex.

    I doubt that Hitler's reputation will ever be rehabilitated. This is because, while people may be prepared to forgive the crimes of ancient or medieval warlords on the grounds of historical context, Hitler didn't have such an excuse. Arguably he was no worse a warmonger than Napoleon, but Napoleon didn't attempt to exterminate an entire ethnicity on industrial lines. That is a horror that will retain its power to appal no matter how many generations pass. As a possible comparison, consider Crassus' crucifixion of six thousand slaves along the Appian Way. That was a very long time ago, in an age when such barbarity was not uncommon, but I think there's still something peculiarly horrible about it even when we learn about it today. Crassus isn't "up there" with Hitler because he's not as well known or as historically significant, but I think it's a good example of an ancient brutality that still appals us now. The Holocaust is orders of magnitude worse than that, not to mention far more culturally significant (I mean so widely known and branded into our cultural memories and awareness).
     
    caketastydelish likes this.
  3. christos200

    christos200 Never tell me the odds

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2011
    Messages:
    12,060
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    EU, Greece, Athens
    I am one of those who do.
     
  4. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2005
    Messages:
    51,353
    Location:
    Stamford Bridge
    Perhaps not here in the west, but in east asia for example, Hitler seems to be even.. celebrated. People there have to be reminded what a horrible man he was. Surely over time Hitler's reputation isn't going to get any worse in that part of the world.
     
  5. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2006
    Messages:
    21,046
    Isn't that in large part due to the fact they don't really teach about the Holocaust over there?
     
  6. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2003
    Messages:
    61,487
    Location:
    Thessalonike, The Byzantine Empire
    Iirc Gandhi spoke of the nazis as some divine punishment against Britain.

    Not sure, but i found this in wiki about Gandhi's quotes about Hitler:

    link is http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Mahatma_Gandhi

    I don't know almost anything of note about Hitler, apart from what is common knowledge for most europeans. I doubt he was anything important, let alone "good". The germans commited countless slaughters all over europe, and they have as much a stigma as their celebrated führer.
     
  7. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2012
    Messages:
    26,549
    Don't Arab cultures have a hard-on for Hitler and Nazism?
    Edit: Pretty sure Ghandi showed remorse for his statements when he realized what a monster Hitler was.
     
  8. calad

    calad Emperor

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2012
    Messages:
    1,385
  9. dutchfire

    dutchfire Deity Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2006
    Messages:
    14,106
    Location:
    -
    As long as Israel is around, it will remind us of how bad Hitler was.
     
  10. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2006
    Messages:
    21,046
    IIRC, only to the extent that he simply isn't really talked about as much there and less is commonly known about the Holocaust.

    In WWII they were in an odd spot due to the fact most Arabs lived in the British Empire. The Mufti of Jerusalem collaborated with the Nazis on several occasions, at times helping to raise Muslim troops to fight the Serbians. That said, it is still debatable to what degree he viewed a Nazi victory as the best hope for an Arab state and to what degree he actively supported Nazism.
     
  11. Plotinus

    Plotinus Philosopher Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2003
    Messages:
    16,817
    Location:
    Somerset
    That's a bit worrying if, as your OP implies, you think Genghis Khan is comparable to Hitler.
     
  12. Domen

    Domen Misico dux Vandalorum

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Messages:
    8,088
    Location:
    Doggerland
    Don't compare military genius Napoleon to military amateur Corporal Hitler.

    We should be thankful that Hitler was the leader of Nazi Germany - his idiotic leadership largely contributed to German defeat.

    If someone else was at the top of Nazi Germany, the war would have lasted at least a few years longer.

    Without Hitler on top, Nazi Germany would be equally atrocious (there were many people with even more racist and genocidal views than Hitler - for example Himmler) and at the same time more efficient. So we should be thankful, that Germans chose an idiot as their leader.

    Regarding Genghis Khan - he was brutal, indeed, but most well-known Mongol massacres (such as the slaughter of Baghdad) were commited by his heirs. I protest against equating an idiot and war criminal Hitler with much less atrocious and much better leaders: Napoleon for example.

    Napoleon is known for his massacres in Egypt - granted. But the scale of his crimes is by no means near to that of Hitler's crime.

    Please also note, that Hitler lived in period of time when international law of military conflicts was already well-established.

    Hitler lived in a much more civilized world than Napoleon, yet his savagery was many times more cruel.
     
  13. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2003
    Messages:
    61,487
    Location:
    Thessalonike, The Byzantine Empire
    I think that same sentence was a reply in the old Alan Turing test :egypt:
     
  14. TheLastOne36

    TheLastOne36 Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2007
    Messages:
    14,045
    I am sure in the distant future when some developer decides to revive the Civilization franchise, they'll have Hitler as a leaderhead.

    Otherwise, I share my sentiments with calad.
     
  15. Tahuti

    Tahuti Writing Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2005
    Messages:
    9,492
    Gender:
    Male
    I don't think Hitler will ever be seen in a positive light in the West, and rightly so IMO. However, I do think that - in general, and from an international perspective - the leaders of the Allied nations (and not just Joseph Stalin) will be viewed less positively as time goes by, which may have the effect of dampening the negative reception of Hitler.
     
  16. Domen

    Domen Misico dux Vandalorum

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Messages:
    8,088
    Location:
    Doggerland
  17. Domen

    Domen Misico dux Vandalorum

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Messages:
    8,088
    Location:
    Doggerland
    Furthermore, there is no surprise why some other states of Asia - ones which experienced the hell of Communism but not the hell of Nazism - love Hitler.

    In the same way many Westerners - who experienced the hell of Nazism but not the hell of Communism - love Stalin.

    Both sentiments are of course dangerous - the fact that Hitler fought against Stalin after 1941 should not be the reason to love Hitler, just like the fact that Stalin fought against Hitler after 1941 should not be the reason to love Stalin.

    Only people who during their history experienced both the hell of Nazism and the hell of Communism can understand this.

    Such people equally hate both of these oppressive systems and their leaders.

    One should also realize, that both those systems had many things in common and cooperated in some periods (like 1939 - 1941).

    =================================

     
  18. christos200

    christos200 Never tell me the odds

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2011
    Messages:
    12,060
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    EU, Greece, Athens
    No, no and again no. Genghis did more good than bad in the world:

    Genghis Khan influenced the world far more than some here think. His conquests allowed East-West trade to begin again. A famous example of East-West communication in the time of the Khans was Marco Polo. Thanks to the peace brought by the Khans in Asia, trade flourished.

    Also, the Westerners started to want the Chinese and Indian products, which after the Mongol Empire collapsed led to the discovery of America.

    Genghis Khan was tolerant to other religions during an age that the so called civilized Arabs and Christians fought the Crusades.

    In military strategy, Genghis Khan managed to show to the world how a small but well trained mobile force could defeat, with the right strategy, a far larger but less mobile and trained force. Also his tactic of faint retreat and how he used it reveal Genghis to be a military genious.

    During his and his sons rule, several scholars from Persia, China and Europe worked together at the court of the Great Khan, which allowed scientific progress.

    ================================================================

    I do not understand the hate of Genghis Khan. And anyway, in my opinion, psycholgical warfare is one of the best forms of warfare. We attempt in wars to have morality, but in the battlefield it is either you will be dead or the enemy. If you must nuke a city to make peace and secure the interests of your nation, then I fully support that. If you do not want people dead, do not start wars in the first place. The "start wars, but make them moral and good" is idiotic.

    Either be pacifist and do not start wars or go to wars but use any means possible to defeat the enemy, from nukes to psychological warfare. If you do not like it, do not start wars.

    I did not compared him to Napoleon. Napoleon is my favourite historical person along with Genghis Khan and Eleftherios Venizelos. I just used Napoleon to say that and persons who were defeated, were later glorified.
     
  19. Domen

    Domen Misico dux Vandalorum

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Messages:
    8,088
    Location:
    Doggerland
    Yes Napoleon was glorified, which is wrong.

    However, majority of people do not glorify him. It is a margin who glorifies him.

    Most people simply admit that Napoleon as a person had both bright sides and dark sides.

    Hitler also had a few bright sides - his paintings were rather nice. But I don't see any other bright sides.
     
    caketastydelish likes this.
  20. christos200

    christos200 Never tell me the odds

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2011
    Messages:
    12,060
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    EU, Greece, Athens
    His economic policies were also good. Sure, it was Lutz Graf Schwerin von Krosigk who did the economic policy, but without Hitler's support, he would not have been able to do his work.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page