Will religion eventually collapse?

[CurtSibling]

He doesn't "look like" anything. He is outside of matter and time and place and thus looks like whatever He feels like.

Really?

Tell me mortal, how are you party to this bit of Dungeons and Dragons background info?

...

 

[Huayna Capac357]

Philosophy

 

[PeteAtoms]

Really?

Tell me mortal, how are you party to this bit of Dungeons and Dragons background info?

...

he read the dungeon master manual, as written by the prophet gygax.

 

[LesCanadiens]

No, but atheism will. Eventually, maybe not in our lifetimes but eventually, the standard of living that Westerners enjoy will collapse, and when rich atheists no longer have the ability to comfort themselves with their money, they'll flock back to churches for comfort just like everyone else.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Explain the logic behind something existing "outside" of time and space? I hear this all the time, and it doesn't make sense (to me). So explain it to me please?

The physical universe (time and space as we know it) 'sprang' into existence. That which was/is before that moment is 'beyond time and space'.

'Logic' is part of 'time and space' and cannot 'see' past what is physical. Brane theory is an attempt to extend 'logic' back before the big bang, but without any evidence, it is little more than speculation, not unlke belief.

 

[CurtSibling]

Philosophy

Wow - great...

Empty words and ego-centric vagueness...

You soundly demonstrated why your religions fail in giving me any worthwhile reasons to believe.

My intellect is too sophisticated to be satisfied with flimsy illogical answers offered by religion.

...

 

[CurtSibling]

No, but atheism will. Eventually, maybe not in our lifetimes but eventually, the standard of living that Westerners enjoy will collapse, and when rich atheists no longer have the ability to comfort themselves with their money, they'll flock back to churches for comfort just like everyone else.

Sure...!
And 9-foot invisible lizards will fly too...!

Reality - There will always be people who question, poverty or riches cannot change that.

Religion will remain the tool of rulership as it always has been...
Curtailed or exploited at the whim of cynical secular men.

...

 

[PeteAtoms]

The physical universe (time and space as we know it) 'sprang' into existence. That which was/is before that moment is 'beyond time and space'.

I think it was stephen hawking who said something about that. it was something like "asking what is beyond space or before time, is like asking what is north of the north pole." It just doesn't make sense. Like you said, it may be our limited logic (confined to our universe.) But we cannot even start to conceive of those notions, so why believe they exist at all?

And brane theory doesn't say there is a time that there never was an 11 dimensional bulk. only that our brane has a birth, for all we know the bulk itself is eternal. so there wouldn't be "something" springing from "nothing."

 

[LesCanadiens]

Sure...!
And 9-foot invisible lizards will fly too...!

Reality - There will always be people who question, poverty or riches cannot change that.

Religion will remain the tool of rulership as it always has been...
Curtailed or exploited at the whim of cynical secular men.

...

The West has been growing increasingly secularized because it is stable and prosperous and most people enjoy a good standard of living. Take that away, and many if not most atheists will eventually flock back to religion. Individual atheists might resist, but their children will grow up in a poor world with no material relief for their suffering, so they will turn to spiritual relief as the only option.

 

[Birdjaguar]

I think it was stephen hawking who said something about that. it was something like "asking what is beyond space or before time, is like asking what is north of the north pole." It just doesn't make sense. Like you said, it may be our limited logic (confined to our universe.) But we cannot even start to conceive of those notions, so why believe they exist at all?

Humans believe lots of irrational things; it comes with the territory. Lots of people can conceive of such things: hence religion and spirituality. Just because it doesn't fit with notions of a logical universe doesn't preclude it existing. The choice of believing irrational things (and which ones to believe) is a personal one.

And brane theory doesn't say there is a time that there never was an 11 dimensional bulk. only that our brane has a birth, for all we know the bulk itself is eternal. so there wouldn't be "something" springing from "nothing."

Yes brane theory is an attempt to solve the 'something from nothing problem' in physics.

 

[Perfection]

Philosophy

That's a disapointing answer.

 

[PeteAtoms]

Yes brane theory is an attempt to solve the 'something from nothing problem' in physics.

Ah, okay. Now I get what you're saying. You're right, but at least physics admits there is an unknown and scientists are working hard to find the truth. Which is more than I can say for religion, which assumes they have the truth without any real effort to prove it. When science is presented with an unknown, at least it tries to solve it. Pointing to a higher being for all of the cosmic mysteries is convenient, but is very unfulfilling logically.

That which was/is before that moment is 'beyond time and space'.

and you're assuming that there was "something" in that state, when there could be nothing.

 

[CurtSibling]

The West has been growing increasingly secularized because it is stable and prosperous and most people enjoy a good standard of living. Take that away, and many if not most atheists will eventually flock back to religion. Individual atheists might resist, but their children will grow up in a poor world with no material relief for their suffering, so they will turn to spiritual relief as the only option.

So you think that if I lost all my money, I would instantly run to a church?



What about all the people who are secular and poor right now?

Your logic is seriously warped, if you don't mind me scoffing...!
You think that people will not try and better their situation?
They will merely give up and go rushing to the nearest dogma?

I think I need not really comment...Your 'reasoning' does a
pretty good enough job of making itself look ludicrous...!

PS
It seems the most religious are those who also have free time and money
to sit and pontificate to others about how atheists are a scourge, etc...!

....

 

[kulade]

Philosophy

C'mon buddy, I'm on the edges of hell; I need a more complete answer!

 

[Globex]

No, but atheism will. Eventually, maybe not in our lifetimes but eventually, the standard of living that Westerners enjoy will collapse, and when rich atheists no longer have the ability to comfort themselves with their money, they'll flock back to churches for comfort just like everyone else.

You may have a point, but what would cause the standard of living to collapse?

 

[CurtSibling]

C'mon buddy, I'm on the edges of hell; I need a more complete answer!

Don't wait up!

...

 

[SnowlyWhite]

organized religion - might decrease in numbers(possible), increase in fanaticism(probability).

Mumbling about education doesn't take in acct. two things:

- it's not at all more advance then before; being better equipped for finding a job or operating a computer has nothing to do with becoming more logic.

Current education usually learns you that Africa is south of Europe and that's that; unfortunately, it doesn't bother at all with learning you that trying to use your head won't damage it... It's factual, it equips you with answers to problems you might encounter, not with finding solutions to unexpected problems.

- mass control evolved too; if religion was/is socially a mean to control the masses, it's absurd to say that only the masses evolved(which anyway, has no ground). The means also did...

Believing CNN anchor about 9/11 or believing the priest about the other side being evil heathens is ultimately the same mechanism/same pattern. N.b. - I'm not in any way believing in some conspiracy theory about mass media manipulating people or that 9/11 is a farce- that's totally irrelevant, 9/11 is good example only because it's known. The mechanism is in place and has at least as much power as old churches had before. Using or not using, or when using it, etc doesn't make the mechanism less functional. Also, you can chose to complement media with church for better manipulation - in case you chose to manipulate via it - or not. But theoretically speaking, you have the choice.

As a mean of mass control, from a controller's POV, it's highly irrelevant what the subjects of said religion believe about lightning. If they believe God did it or electricity - who cares? You need them to do your bidding in much more mundane scenarios...

Mysticism on the other hand probably will last as long as humanity. And it's a common sense attitude. How can I know I'm the result of Big Bang or of some experiment and currently some green little men(or God if you chose another definition) are watching me? Ultimately no subject of an experiment is aware of his situation, so keeping a benefit of doubt is only logic.

 

[Globex]

Mumbling about education doesn't take in acct. two things:

- it's not at all more advance then before; being better equipped for finding a job or operating a computer has nothing to do with becoming more logic.

It depends on the type of education. If you go to a technical school, then perhaps it won't help you to think more logically. But you have to use a lot of logical and analytical thinking if you attend a university (though it depends on what university you attend and what classes you take).

Also Better Job = More money = Higher standard of living = Less of a need for religion

 

[SnowlyWhite]

Better Job = More money = Higher standard of living = Less of a need for religion

and that's exactly the part I didn't agree with.

Believing that if you're nice and do your job God will be nice and give you a place in heaven or believing that if you're nice and do your job you'll get more cash(to buy a new car for instance) fall back on the same thing.

You want to be happy; you don't know exactly what'd make you happy, you don't bother to do your own thinking, so you fall back on a recipe which supposedly works.

Imho organized religion means exactly this mechanics wise: follow a recipe(do actions a1 to an/don't do actions b1 to bm) and you'll be rewarded by something supposedly good(the other version being "you won't be punished"). Take a recipe for granted, follow it without thinking if you agree with it or not.

And that's why I argued education didn't make much progress and that's why I don't find any relation between having more money and less religion. Money by itself is a religion; probably 98-99% of the population if asked, will tell you they want money - most of them as 1st thing - despite that they can't articulate anything even remotely logical as in why they want them...

Neither humans in general, nor the education system made any significant progress as far as developing logics/thinking and humans are as prone as before to "buy a solution" instead of trying to think about one which is exactly what a religion does.

And the fact that science proved Earth ain't the middle of the universe, it's totally irrelevant. It's merely a problem of adapting the lines and stop preaching that it is.... or be replaced by a new religion which doesn't say that... but that'll be a religion nevertheless. That's afterall why religions keep swapping/mutating/etc.

N.b - I'm not advocating poverty, I'm just saying that organized religion will disappear when people will be less prone to take things for granted, which is something that money simply can't buy. It's not in their function...

 

[King Flevance]

And what is this basic message of Christianity?

Don't give us any "just being nice to people" BS; how is your religion different from any other?

The fact that you are unable to save yourself through deeds. It is Jesus's mercy alone that saves us. All other relgions either have some "ultimate enlightenment" you are suppose to realize if you work on it. Or your deeds are what defines your afterlife as far as I know. In Christianity you cannot save yourself. That is the entire purpose of Jesus's sacrifice. It is only by His grace that you will be saved.

Also Better Job = More money = Higher standard of living = Less of a need for religion

So it would seem to one who seeks earthly rewards instead of heavenly ones.