Will the AI understand the Impact of MAD and Nuclear Weapons?

[10Seven]

Since the AI in Civ3 seemed to have no idea - but the non-affective blurb in diplomacy - I'm wondering if it will work.

I'm currently playing Civ3, I nuked the heck out of the naughty Russians, but they keep on coming - they have no concept of the potential for destruction - thus, Nukes in Civ3 are just a powerful and one shot tank, not a powerful psychological as well as military weapon.

 

[admiral-bell]

they used to have fear of nukes in civ 2 ( I Think)

 

[warpstorm]

Since MAD did not exist in Civ3, why should they? Nukes just weren't that powerful in the game.

 

[joethreeblah]

Since MAD did not exist in Civ3, why should they? Nukes just weren't that powerful in the game.

Tell that to my former capital and next two most beautiful cities

 

[Ivan the Kulak]

Tell that to my former capital and next two most beautiful cities

Ya shoulda built the SMD before starting a nuclear war.

I think if they ever did code the AI to be "horrified" about using nukes, the player would find a way to exploit it. So, the AI will probably always blithely go on nuking and polluting when it thinks it can get away with it.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Actually, I think the secret to solving this problem may lie in a combination of the AI personalities, leader traits and possible 'situational factors'. For instance, I couldn't see Ghandi even building-let alone using -nukes, unless he were pushed to the limits of desperation. At least one of the Mongol leaders, on the other hand, might use nuclear weapons without much hesitation-unless he feared a retaliation so fierce that his entire civilization might die.
The main point here, though, is that the leader you choose to represent your own civ should effect how easily you-the human player-can use nuclear weapons against other players or AI's. Of course, in order to balance things out, I reckon the impact of nukes-both short and long term-need to be a hell of a lot worse.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[warpstorm]

Tell that to my former capital and next two most beautiful cities

Three cities ain't MAD. MAD is complete and total destruction of your empire, IMHO.

 

[Superkrest]

no..i dont know how it should be implemented..i no..i dont know if its even possible..but i think the "assured mutual distruction" should be taken into effect. i will avoid war...or try to be as tactful as possible with a civ that has nukes...and the ai should be as well. the only reason world war 3 didnt happen was nukes. thats it. i just hope a smarter Ai can cope with all we demand of it

 

[Robi D]

I think civ3 simulated MAD fairly well, by making everyone (minus allies) automatically go to war against a the civ whose uses them first. The only time i have every seen the ai use nukes is when there civ is on the brink of destruction, which is fair enough in my opinion. However what i have a problem with is that it doesn't tell you that someone used a nuclear weapon and that your at war with them.

 

[rickb]

Yeah MAD is something I've always wanted to see implemented. Basically make it so that your ICBM's will automatically launch (maybe targeting the enemy civ cities in order of population) when you are attacked,and being able to set the percent of missiles you automatically launch in retaliation, like say 0/33/66/100%.

I like the concept of having to guide your civ through this dangerous phase of nuclear annihilation until you get SDI. You could get really fancy and maybe make it so while your building the SDI it actually makes the situation more dangerous, as it will give you a first strike capability if no other civ's have it. Which would make it more important to be allied or on friendly terms with other civ's during this period. Maybe have some sort of nuclear disarmament wonder or diplomatic option.

 

[Carver]

Automated response is an interesting idea. But regardless of wether or not that is implemented the AI should understand that nukes are a different type of weapon and shouldn't just throw them around like any other unit - as it seems to now.

 

[doronron]

they used to have fear of nukes in civ 2 ( I Think)

Civ2 also knew how to use nukes (nuke city/paradrop in for the capture), and would throw their nukes around quite often.

 

[rickb]

Now that I think about it a little more, automatic realitation doesn't really make much sense in a turned based environment. The main thing is to design it so the player that fires first doesn't have an advantage or at least a small one.

Yeah actually I've never been nuked in Civ 3 (in contrast to Civ 2 where it would happen *all* the time) or used nukes, so I'm not really sure how balanced it is right now. If I remember correctly, nukes have a 50% chance to take out each unit within 3x3 tiles, right? So conceivably you could take out 50% of a player's nukes on the first strike (except for tactical nukes on subs and away from the cities) if you targetted one missile for each city with a nuke, or 75% with two missiles, and so on...

Adjusting those values so ICBM's have a less chance of being destroyed in a nuclear strike might solve the problem. Maybe make it only 10% with an additional type of ICBM that has greater accuracy that would raise it back 50%, and have the number of those "first strike" missiles destablize things and make other civ's more likely to use their nukes, as they would be if you were building SDI.

I'm liking the idea of some sort of nuclear disarmament option, either a wonder (maybe instead of or in addition to SDI) or some sort of diplomatic agreement you could make with another civ not to build nukes. Actually things like that could bring a whole new diplomatic level to the game. You could have all sorts of military diplomatic agreements, like you agree to build no more than 10 battleships, or have this large an army, or whatever. Force a civ you just defeated to limit their army and any breach would give you a cassus belli.

 

[warpstorm]

I've been nuked many times and to the best of my recollection I've never lost a nuke in the fireballs. I suspect that they aren't destroyed (or I've been incredibly lucky). I'll ask one of the guys if I remember.

 

[rickb]

I've been nuked many times and to the best of my recollection I've never lost a nuke in the fireballs. I suspect that they aren't destroyed (or I've been incredibly lucky). I'll ask one of the guys if I remember.

Yeah if ICBMs don't get destroyed at all in nuke attacks, then I guess we've already got pretty much MAD, and at least in my experience (Monarch/Emporer level, normal aggression) the AI seems to respect that. Maybe I'm just not pissing them off like you guys are. Now normally by the time I get to the modern age I'm also pretty much ahead technologically, so I get and build nukes before the other civs do, and now that I think about it, I probably get SDI before most of the other civs have many nukes, so maybe that's why all my games have been nuke free.

 

[frankthe butler]

in my last game i was nuked by america and i really don't think the AI handles nukes sensibly. i had just built up about 13 nukes myself, and america, which was either cautious or annoyed decided to attack with about 5 or 6. i backed up a turn and couldn't do anything to change the outcome. i tried two or three turns but nothing stopped america from nuking me. no gpt or luxuries or anything--they always broke the deal and nuked me.
America had a huge continent to itself which was my fault for accidentally goading it into wars that it won. for most of the game it had twice the power as i did. but i went over and razed 6 or 7 of their most important cities and destroyed their capital that had 3 wonders. the war ended about 20 or 30 turns before they nuked me. they must have had a grudge, and they also had a very bad rep internationally.
but having a bad reputation shouldn't make an AI civ IRRATIONAL. obviously i would nuke them back; and they were destroyed.
_ i built up my arsenal for nuclear deterrance but it didn't affect anything.

 

[warpstorm]

but i went over and razed 6 or 7 of their most important cities and destroyed their capital that had 3 wonders.

After you did this, you expected them to not want to take petty revenge? If I were playing against you, I'da nuked you too even if it meant losing.

 

[Avayaman]

Nukes should always come with a modifier for happiness. the most important part with nukes is that it comes with such a powerful psychological blow to the survivors. MAD is such a powerful nuclear deterrence that it should be understood by the AI and should be reflected in the game.