Will the EU break-up before it can become a world power?

[carmen510]

Why need the UKIP, when you have the Foreign Office?

Spoiler :

Link to video.

 

[metatron]

Even though Norway isn't a member we're being forced stuff like EU data retention directive on to us through our obligations as a member in European Economic Area.

Erm...just don't do it.
Sweden and Austria just refuse faik. And Germany opted to fail and delay take 2 indefinately. The usual approach.

Newsflash: The EU can't do **** to you, especially since you are not a member. They can't do anything significant to you if you fake your books for a decade and cheat other people out of some eleven figure sum.
But if you're not on board with the anglo-francais obsession with hunting down teenage pirates they'll be all over you.
Right...

Middle finger + "You can't make me!"
Elemental EU membership skills.
Even gets you treaties rewritten. Ask Denmark.

 

[Bast]

EU is the 21st world power like Britain was in 19th century or USA in 20th century.

 

[Kyriakos]

Not much use of the EU if it does not help its members in any way at all. Not in foreign policy, not in border control, not economically. I am sure the founders of the idea of a united Europe had something drastically different in mind.

And no, lending money at a higher interest than you got them for, under unfavorable conditions, is not help at all. Might as well rename the union to "WW2 didn't exist".

 

[Verbose]

Not much use of the EU if it does not help its members in any way at all. Not in foreign policy, not in border control, not economically. I am sure the founders of the idea of a united Europe had something drastically different in mind.

And no, lending money at a higher interest than you got them for, under unfavorable conditions, is not help at all. Might as well rename the union to "WW2 didn't exist".

Would you deny that you might be posting that out of a sense of — very understandable (I agree Greece's situation right now is awful) — disappointment with how things have developed for Greece?

Because the Greek situation is tricky all round. The EU system isn't stronger than that it relies on members dealing with each other, and the joint sphere in Brussels and Strassburg, in good faith. And that former Greek government which did not, has landed everyone in the cacky. It's bad if the former system of good-faith interaction is going to be replaced with something enforcing things, which right now the Germans seem most adamant about (feeling, as it seems, they've been getting fleeced for being naive about things until now).

Prior to that no one really heard the Greeks complain about being a net receiver of EU funds, the money going into agricultural subsidies, and some pretty hefty infrastructure development projects iirc...

(And I also tend to be one of those maintaining that the EU cannot run an economy on a premise of others losing so that Germany might win, relatively.)

 

[GoodSarmatian]

I think euroskepticism is only strong in a small, sometimes vocal and probably old minority.
Most people I know are either pro-EU or sadly indifferent and everybody who gets far enough in politics will see that the EU has ultimately benefited all member states, that's why organisations like Libertas have to make up outrageous lies like a european army with universal conscription. If they stick to the truth they can't "convicne" anybody.
There's no rising nationalism, and the financial crisis is actually further accelerating european integration.

 

[Tee Kay]

There's no rising nationalism

I disagree, I think there's a rise in European Nationalism. Or, well, White European, anyway

 

[GoodSarmatian]

I disagree, I think there's a rise in European Nationalism. Or, well, White European, anyway

Really ?
How is it stronger now than 10 or 20 years ago ?
The only difference I've seen that Germans have started to wave their flags again since the world cup 2006, but it's still rather harmless.

 

[Tee Kay]

No, I mean Pan-European Nationalism.

 

[metatron]

Not much use of the EU if it does not help its members in any way at all. Not in foreign policy, not in border control, not economically. I am sure the founders of the idea of a united Europe had something drastically different in mind.

And no, lending money at a higher interest than you got them for, under unfavorable conditions, is not help at all. Might as well rename the union to "WW2 didn't exist".

Oh please...

Middle finger + "You can't make me!"
Elemental EU membership skills.

Applies as well to:

• Understanding economic concepts (unlike "a strong currenzy iz always good cuz i can haz cheeseburger").
• Working past the age of 42.
• Appreciating the concept of "paying" bills.
• Not calling the guy who buys you lunch after you cheated him a Nazi.
• Dealing with a neighboring countries name like an adult.

@Singularity:
See how well it works.
That bit of data storange or no data storange doesn't even matter in comparison.

 

[Shekwan]

Whatever happened to Libertas, by the way?

They ran in the 2009 EU elections, across 8 countries and only won a signle seat.

Yep, they're finished as far as I know. Declan Ganley was on the radio ranting the other day about the EU/IMF bailout. Thats about the right place for him.

EU is the 21st world power like Britain was in 19th century or USA in 20th century.

In the 19th century Britain taught us to produce, in the 20th the United States taught us to consume, and in the 21st it will be Europe that teaches us how to sustain.

Or will it be China? Could very well be.

 

[El_Machinae]

I don't think so. They've the potential of being a robust powerblock, especially united.

 

[Tufio]

Something that is not even concrete can't really fall apart... the eu is a little more that a bunch of trade agreements.

Rise in nationalism make no sense but the eu members are VERY different to begin with... and that nearly totally block any attemps to do collective policies.

And i don't see the end of that.

I disagree, I think there's a rise in European Nationalism.

I dunno.

Well, i can even say that in italy the "european nationalism" don't exist AT ALL.

 

[ComradeDavo]

I disagree, I think there's a rise in European Nationalism. Or, well, White European, anyway

In comparison to what? Last week?

I advise you do some historical research before posting claims like this. makes it looks like you don't know too much about European history. You know, what with their having been 2 world wars and all, not to mention the Napoleonic wars, the Prussian wars of unification, the Italian wars of unification, the Spanish Civil war and all that. Just saying that some of those might have featured rather large chunks of nationalism.

 

[Kyriakos]

Would you deny that you might be posting that out of a sense of — very understandable (I agree Greece's situation right now is awful) — disappointment with how things have developed for Greece?

Because the Greek situation is tricky all round. The EU system isn't stronger than that it relies on members dealing with each other, and the joint sphere in Brussels and Strassburg, in good faith. And that former Greek government which did not, has landed everyone in the cacky. It's bad if the former system of good-faith interaction is going to be replaced with something enforcing things, which right now the Germans seem most adamant about (feeling, as it seems, they've been getting fleeced for being naive about things until now).

Prior to that no one really heard the Greeks complain about being a net receiver of EU funds, the money going into agricultural subsidies, and some pretty hefty infrastructure development projects iirc...

(And I also tend to be one of those maintaining that the EU cannot run an economy on a premise of others losing so that Germany might win, relatively.)

My own views are shaped by the articles i read, and what comes up on the news, here and some foreign channels too.
But it is not true that Greece had managed to fool the EU and thus entered the eurozone with false stats. The situation was known long before that, and in fact the census here is that it was part of some plan to destabilize, both the country, and also ultimately the Euro. It seems that for many years the ultra-corrupt governments (both Pasok and Nd) were making secret deals, mostly with Germany and France, which got those countries to receive double the amount of payment that the products they sold (i am referring to arms deals) were worth. There is also a famous quote by Jean Claude Juncker, head of the Eurogroup, who talks about this.

Greece should not have entered the eurozone, and i am sure if it had not, and if those governments were not corrupt, now it would have been fine. As things stand there should be some diminishing of the debt, along with an expansion of the time to pay it.

Now the second may indeed happen, in the 25th of March (how ironic, since that is the anniversary of the Greek revolution of 1821...). But the pm says he will not ask for a diminishing of the debt, for reasons i personally do not understand, while famous economists argue that this must happen at any case.

 

[Verbose]

the census here is that it was part of some plan to destabilize, both the country, and also ultimately the Euro. It seems that for many years the ultra-corrupt governments (both Pasok and Nd) were making secret deals, mostly with Germany and France, which got those countries to receive double the amount of payment that the products they sold (i am referring to arms deals) were worth. There is also a famous quote by Jean Claude Juncker, head of the Eurogroup, who talks about this.

Well, you must be aware there's tin-foil hat warning on this?

 

[Godwynn]

Economy of Greece

GDP growth: -6.6%
Inflation: 5.2%
Unemployment: 13.9%
Public debt: 126.8%
Deficit: 15.4%

I don't see how Europe can advance as a continent or become a world power if nations such as Greece keep on dragging their collective feet. It would be better for Europe if the core, advanced nations went forward, and they cut off the cancer.

 

[Kyriakos]

Well, you must be aware there's tin-foil hat warning on this?

I am even more aware that there exists to some degree a natural aversion to belittle the significance of euro official's own words

But, sadly, i am not simply aware, but entirely conscious, of the fact that this thread has little to offer in way of serious discussion of an issue which at any rate was not the central one of the OP either.

 

[Xanikk999]

EU is the 21st world power like Britain was in 19th century or USA in 20th century.

What the U.S is suddenly no longer a world power?

Could of fooled me with the way we are pushing our military on countries unopposed like we own the world. Look at how many countries we got military bases in unopposed. Other governments cave to us.

Look I am in no way a supporter of my countries policies (In fact I am directly opposed to most of them). However, to claim that the United States is not the supreme super power of the 21st century is naive at best.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

No, I mean Pan-European Nationalism.

What do you mean with Pan-European ? That people start to see themselves more as europeans are becoming increasingly patriotic about it ?
I remember a course on the EU when the lecturer said that young people are indeed adopting a european identity (the poll wa smainly about university students).