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Will there be Cheap Shots tactics in Civ6?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by genyl, Oct 14, 2016.

  1. stealth_nsk

    stealth_nsk Deity

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    Surely, on island plates map everyone should get Shipbuilding very early (although not necessary belline). However, that's only 125 science with both eurekas, compared to 1215 science to reach Squire Rigging with the same eurekas. This means you could get both embarkation AND srordsmen for 1/5 of the Squire Rigging science.
    Alternatively, if you don't want to rely on Iron, you could beeline Military Tactics and Shipbuilding getting embarked Pikemen for still 1/2 of the Squire Rigging tech cost, plus getting things like Campus and Commercial District along the way.

    Even on Island Plates there are tonns of possibilities how to spend this huge pack of science effectively. Although I agree, in some cases beelining to Frigates on sea-based maps could be worth it, but it's surely doesn't look imbalanced.

    EDIT:

    And just as some rough planning. Consider what:
    - Pottery and Writing will unlock Campus, which will surely compensate the techs spent on them.
    - Astrology and Celestial Navigation together, even without eurekas, cost less than Cartography eureka you could trigger with them.
    So, the most effective "beelining" for Frigates looks like 8 techs, not 4.

    Finally, Frigate is 280 production and 5 gold maintenance. If you want to actually have Frigates, you need at least techs to improve resources (+2-3 techs), much better if you have Commercial hub and Industrial Zone.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2016
  2. kaspergm

    kaspergm Deity

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    Obviously, it's the task of the developers to remove potential imbalances. Dismissing the frigate issue by saying "it's people's own fault if they find the game boring by doing it" is not really a valid argument. A game is not balanced by the player not choosing to use the imabalanced paths. And that's not even addressing the immersion issue of entering renaissance era on your third tech or building frigates without knowledge of the wheel.

    And when people question whether this will be a viable strategy - well, the yogscast team did it, and they didn't exactly optimize their game, neither did they have a start that favored science. And whether it will be viable beyond prince? Maybe not, but I wonder how people will feel if AI turns up at their borders with frigates and starts one-shotting their cities when playing at higher levels.
     
  3. stealth_nsk

    stealth_nsk Deity

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    Exactly, we don't know how viable this strategy will be on higher difficulty levels.
    And speaking about AI - it never used heavy-beelining strategies in previous Civ games and there's no reason for it to start. It's not what AI is for.
     
  4. skyclad

    skyclad Prince

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    Come on, its completely ridiculous to beeline frigates in 4 techs! How can you skip straight to the end of the ren era with just that? Of course you need for example iron working to even make those ships and the cannons on them etc.
    At least add mathematics as a req, or even gunpowder. How can they have cannons on the ship without ironworking or gunpowder? Even if it turns out not to be the very best strategy (im pretty sure it WILL, lead to fastest domination victories on water maps) its still completely ridiculous.
     
  5. stealth_nsk

    stealth_nsk Deity

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    There's no logic in this. If you check my message, you could discover Squire Rigging EARLIER if you discover 8 techs not 4. And you could have frigates earlier if you discover about 10 techs.
    So even if you have aesthetic dislike about the tech tree appearance, it have nothing to do with actual gameplay.
     
  6. dturtle1

    dturtle1 Prince

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    Stealth, The issue is not whether 4 techs is faster than 8 or whatever. The issue is that it is too damn quick to get Frigates, regardless of whether you beeline or not. At no point did i say that 4 techs is quickest, my issue is that you can frigates in approximately 75 turns. If you have a look at the mining/Construction lines you will notice that in order to progress to Machinery you have tech Iron Working as well as Construction. The problem with the Naval Line is that skips the Medieval Era all together. My issue is that, like the Machinery/Iron Working Lines there should be more crossover so you cant just simply tech from Classical straight to the Renaissance. The way the Tech tree is at the moment, You can simply just skip the Medieval Era when teching Naval, which is wrong IMO

    You quite rightly alluded to the fact that going Astrology/Celestial navigation is quicker than hard teching Cartography(as long as you actually build the 2 harbours) but the same could be said for Metal casting being quicker by picking up the mining/machinery line which brings that up to 12 odd techs. The raw cost in science to tech Square Sails is substantially less than other Late Renaissance techs and this is the issue. I personally cant see how getting Frigates 1000+ years before they were historically invented is somehow fine.
     
  7. stealth_nsk

    stealth_nsk Deity

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    Civilization is not historical simulator. You could have some things earlier than they occured in history, some things later. The variety is part of the thing what makes Civilization a great game. If it's not imbalanced gameplay-wise and it doesn't look imbalanced to me for reasons I've described, I see no issues here. Yes, you could rush to Frigates and build 2 of them, totally overloading your economy by 400AD, why not?
     
    Xyriach likes this.
  8. dturtle1

    dturtle1 Prince

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    What reasons, that you can rush Iron Working instead ? That you can run about with embarked pikes while I sink their sorry ass with Caravels. On a Naval Map no strategy that does not involve rushing Frigates will be a good Strategy. The Yogcast boys had Frigates by 500AD and i assure you they did not tank their economy. You are right Civ is not a historical Simulator, but there is a big difference between a little bit earlier or later and 1200 damn years earlier. I wouldn't want see Frigates at turn 150, let alone Turn 75. Please, for then 4th time or so, explain to me how the Difference in Raw Science Cost between Square Sailing and an equivalent late Renaissance is somehow not imbalanced.
     
  9. MadDjinn

    MadDjinn Deity

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    Yes Stealth, these long 1.5-2 era jumps are bad tech tree design and will damage gameplay.

    I agree grabbing harbours is faster than not, wrt fast cartography. but then, if you want ships some harbours would be nice anyways; plus harbours->Great Admirals wouldn't be a bad thing for a fleet.
    So..

    settle on coast, improve 2 sea resources, build 2 galleys, make 2 harbours... Cartography is now cheap to get. Renaissance real quick. Not going for a campus somewhere in there would just be odd, so you could easily also push for a great scientist. Some of those give straight up beakers based upon terrain near them. Get one from the Medieval or Renaissance era (which you'll be in soon) and the eureka for Square Rigging could be gone; or you'd get the beakers to finish it in one shot.

    as per your 'ships cost more to produce' point -> answer = upgrade. Keep gold around and upgrade some early units.

    And that's just the early game. From the Renaissance onwards, you do not need to get any of the military side of the tech tree (bottom 1/2). all Science, Gold, and Production buildings are on the top side. All wonders are up top. Since it's a short hop to AT units, at 70 strength, you can totally ignore every renaissance/industrial military tech on the way. Then just beeline Mech Infantry to go along with your air units.

    What remains to be seen is the effect of these 'fast era changes' on the other systems. How many rely on eras for increased costs/penalities/etc? That is the bigger problem with the long jumps.
     
  10. stealth_nsk

    stealth_nsk Deity

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    Well, yes, in general long jumps are bad design, together with long disconnected branches or deadends, etc. However, the original point was about cheese strategies and it doesn't look like straight Frigate is always great option even on Island Plates.
    Also, it looks like developers considered eurekas to be some kind of "weak" requirements. With this approach the tree looks much more tightly joined.

    Yes, that was point too. With Renaissance units requiring 5 gold per turn, for example, you need significant economy to sustain a noticeable army.
     
  11. Aedn

    Aedn Chieftain

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    Watch marbizors stream, the new worker cheese is waiting until they build a builder, then just steal the city and builder. Early aggression is pretty OP.
     
  12. Denkt

    Denkt Left permamently

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    It is a bit strange you can have solid cannon armed frigates without knowing stuff such as gunpowder or even lumbermills.

    Althougth the whole game can be a bit strange at times.

    The beeline is pretty expensive so it do have some serious tradeoff.

    Maybe that was how Korea could defeat Japan in the sea battles;)
     
  13. kaspergm

    kaspergm Deity

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    Actually, the default AI strategy in Civ5 seems to beeline along the botttom row of the tech tree to upgrade military units asap. - at least in the build I play. I can't rule out that this may be influenced by the mods I use (CP for instance), but I see beelining quite often. By the timing of when AI builds Great Lighthouse, I'd also say there's a fair amount of beelining going on along the top of the tech tree for the very navy oriented civs (Denmark and England seems to often favor this path).
     
  14. Acken

    Acken Deity

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    In general the tech tree has too many straighlines. This one is one of the most obvious, I'm sure we'll find others as we play.

    It wouldn't be as much of a problem if the difference in strength with earlier boats wasn't 25 (caravel) or 30 (frigates). It means you one shot or 2 shot the previous upgrade. Certainly this can't be good design.

    Maybe we just need medieval naval techs.
     
  15. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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  16. Louis XXIV

    Louis XXIV Le Roi Soleil

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    The questioni s whether it's game-breaking or merely realism-breaking. If you end up with Frigates but no way to effectively wield them while vulnerable to everything else, I have no problem with allowing this. It just ends up as some suicidal alt-history that isn't in anyone's interests to actually do unless they want something kooky and off-kilter.
     
  17. genyl

    genyl Chieftain

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    I knew there was going to be some controversy regarding beelining.

    I will explain why I dislike it. It is not only that it feels a bit unnatural and "hacky" (even if not so much as the others) it also reduces decision making in the game. In the latest Civs I love how you had to choose a technology plan but you also had to react to new events. If there is a superior strategy like national college beelining you will want to do that in every game. And although you still have to time it properly it kind of removing most of the tech decisions.

    That is why I love eurekas and two trees. It will require constant adaptation
     
  18. ExemplarVoss

    ExemplarVoss Prince

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    It doesn't really though. Most eurekas are firmly predictable, and ideal tech advancement is already getting mapped out (and bee-lining is part of that, particularly for industrial zones)

    Civics are less so, but a lot of that falls into side branches and the victory path you really ought to have already chosen by the time you get to them. Or they're very early on where you have little direct influence over them (like finding a second continent, or having enough growth). You can only try by throwing units out there.
     
  19. stealth_nsk

    stealth_nsk Deity

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    As Spartans would say - IF
     
  20. dturtle1

    dturtle1 Prince

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    As Agent Smith would say -"It is Inevitable" :)
     

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