Will they go to Hell

[vonork]

The question springs to my mind, regarding knights, governors, priest, cardinals and perhaps some pops of the past. Well, as I see it, if we accept the existents of a heaven and hell, and some nicely written laws from gods; that there seam to be some or rather a lot of misguided people in the past. Some examples: The Spanish inquisition, the crusaders, several executed scientist (that even today’s pope say was right) and others…

So, well, basically do the people of the past that went along with this go to hell (including cardinals and pops and others)?

 

[h4ppy]

It depends on witch sect you are a part of. Catholics can discount many of those people because of being forgiven by the pope but protestants didn't recognize his authority and in their minds some of those people probably did go to hell.

 

[CurtSibling]

Depends if you regard hell as a place made by churches to control the actions of the faithful, via terror and fear of it.

If you don't follow the myth, it means nothing.

 

[Shadylookin]

assuming hell exist I would say all but a few souls reside in it.

 

[Speedo]

So, well, basically do the people of the past that went along with this go to hell (including cardinals and pops and others)?

I do not know their hearts. Some of them probably did repent. But since even normally very few truly believe, I'd say the same of them: very few.

Just because they took part in something doesn't make them go to hell. Had Hitler repented, even he could be enjoying the company of the Savior. But given what is known about his character and mental state, the likelihood that he did is about as good as, well, hell freezing over...

 

[IglooDame]

Originally posted by Speedo


I do not know their hearts. Some of them probably did repent. But since even normally very few truly believe, I'd say the same of them: very few.

Just because they took part in something doesn't make them go to hell. Had Hitler repented, even he could be enjoying the company of the Savior. But given what is known about his character and mental state, the likelihood that he did is about as good as, well, hell freezing over...

You've just hit upon what I consider to be the most unfair thing about religion, for which The Prodigal Son parable sums up nicely. Someone generally accepted as one of the top ten evil human beings in mankind's history can repent on their deathbed and go to heaven, but if I live an exemplary but secular-minded life, devoting myself to altruism just because I believe it's the right thing to do, I'm still going to hell? If that is the case, what is the point? Why call heaven a reward, if accepting God is the only thing that matters?

[/rant]

 

[CurtSibling]

Originally posted by Speedo
Had Hitler repented, even he could be enjoying the company of the Savior.

Speedo, this kind of reasoning spurs my most acute condemnation of human religion.

For, only humans could come up with such a twisted and self-serving mythology.

"Repent to our church and we'll forgive you, no matter if you despised christianity and put millions of people to death in WW2!"

Totally unjust, and typically human.

 

[utahjazz7]

Originally posted by CurtSibling


Speedo, this kind of reasoning spurs my most acute condemnation of human religion.

For, only humans could come up with such a twisted and self-serving mythology.

"Repent to our church and we'll forgive you, no matter if you despised christianity and put millions of people to death in WW2!"

Totally unjust, and typically human.

No, I think that it's typically unhuman. I think that it's human nature not to forgive. I don't see either how forgiving someone on their death bed could be "self-serving." What would any human be getting in return for the conversion; the person will die?

Also, it's not repenting to our church; it's repenting to God. As an example of God's grace, before his conversion, Paul--then known as Saul--was a persecutor of Christians. The story is told in Acts 9, and he is also mentioned at the end of Acts 7 as watching the clothes of those who stoned Stephen, the first recorded Christian martyr.

 

[KaNick]

You actually have to be sorry for one of those death bed things to work. I am Atheist, but I cannot allow such half truths to go one. Has anyone heard the proverb of the harsh slave owner. He resolved one night that the next day he would let all his slaves go and would dedicate his life to God. That night he died in his sleep and went to hell.

 

[CurtSibling]

Originally posted by utahjazz7
No, I think that it's typically unhuman. I think that it's human nature not to forgive. I don't see either how forgiving someone on their death bed could be "self-serving." What would any human be getting in return for the conversion; the person will die?

I think you miss the point a bit, utahjazz7.

It seems all most churches want is more prestige and power.
For someone to be converted by their clergy exclusively is a huge morale, ego and prestige boost.

If you think that today's churches operate without self-serving sentiment,
you have a long way to go in understanding human greed.

See beoynd the dogma.

Originally posted by utahjazz7
Also, it's not repenting to our church; it's repenting to God. As an example of God's grace, before his conversion, Paul--then known as Saul--was a persecutor of Christians. The story is told in Acts 9, and he is also mentioned at the end of Acts 7 as watching the clothes of those who stoned Stephen, the first recorded Christian martyr.

Um, yes. A fine story, I'm sure.
But it means not a great deal to me, utah.

Well, at the end of the day, men like Hitler and Stalin killed millions of people from a multitude of creeds, and backgrounds.

And your god's existence as it stands, is unproven.
Also, consider that these terrible men met with death, all unrepentant and hateful of mankind.

Stalin killed untold millions, but died a dictator and was never punished for his excesses, as was Hitler, who escaped justice.

No god, no punishment, no hells, only human folly.

It make one certain that there is no 'grace', only the hard and fast rules of might and right.

No comfort there, but that is the way life is.

 

[Archer 007]

Some did, some didnt. Depends on if they accepted Christ into their hearts.

 

[ShiplordAtvar]

Originally posted by vonork
The question springs to my mind, regarding knights, governors, priest, cardinals and perhaps some pops of the past. Well, as I see it, if we accept the existents of a heaven and hell, and some nicely written laws from gods; that there seam to be some or rather a lot of misguided people in the past. Some examples: The Spanish inquisition, the crusaders, several executed scientist (that even today’s pope say was right) and others…

So, well, basically do the people of the past that went along with this go to hell (including cardinals and pops and others)?

Honestly I don't think I'll find out until after I die. If I'm in hell and see these people, then I know they went to hell. If I'm in heaven and don't see them, then I will also know that they went to hell. Observations otherwise would presumably mean they went to heaven.

 

[CurtSibling]

Originally posted by Archer 007
Some did, some didnt. Depends on if they accepted Christ into their hearts.

How can accepting a rebel religious leader who died 2000 years
ago really have a bearing on the afterlife of an Austrian dictator in 1945?

Especially when that afterlife only lives as a dream in men's minds?

Would you care to elaborate beyond sentimentalism and romantic platitiudes?

 

[Archer 007]

Would you care to elaborate beyond opinion (which, i'll admit, mine is also). We havent died yet, so we dont know.

 

[onejayhawk]

If you accept that there is a God who cares what we do, then you also must accept that he can see the reality of the heart and judge accordingly.

Consider. If you were to die and at the gates of heaven they told you that you would be your own judge, with full recall not only of your actions but of your motives, would that be good news? You may assume that your honest judgement would be enforced.

J

 

[cgannon64]

Unless they realized their mistake, yes.

 

[Xeven the God]

Originally posted by CurtSibling
How can accepting a rebel religious leader who died 2000 years
ago really have a bearing on the afterlife of an Austrian dictator in 1945?

Especially when that afterlife only lives as a dream in men's minds?

Would you care to elaborate beyond sentimentalism and romantic platitiudes?

And would you care to stop being such a really cool guy ? God's existence, as it stands, has not been disproven either. There is exactly zero (zip, nadda, none) evidence either way. Seriously, this torques me off ( ). Do not presume to present your own god damned opinions as fact. You know as well as I that you can't prove a word you said.

Further more, don't be so ****ing condesending. It's like you want to start a flame war. Really, what is it with you and these religion threads? It's always the same: "I am Curt Sibling, your god doesn't exist, and you are an idiot." I read the damned Passions of Christ thread you started... Same thing there. It was post after post of 'these religious idiots get so worked up about a guy that didn't exist'. You need to learn to be tolerant of other peoples' beliefs, you really cool guy.
Moderator Action: warned, flaming, vulgarity, profanity
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
Now, If you want to have a civil conversation, please explain your views, instead of presenting rude opinions and blatantly critisizing other peoples beliefs. In other words, elaborate beyond opinions and insults.

PS: I realise this post is offensive, and a flame, but it is ment to be, and it is to someone who truly deserves it. Please note that I'm not flaming Curt because of my religion. I am also an Atheist. No, I flamed him because he is an really cool guy, plain and simple.

 

[Pontiuth Pilate]

If Hitler repented on his deathbed - well, who benefited? Nobody, that's who. Did six million Jews and six million Poles, homosexuals, political dissidents, etc, rise from the dead? No. Repentance CANNOT wash away sin. Pretending otherwise is just avoiding your own personal responsibility. If there's a Hell, Hitler deserved to go to it. Personally, if I were St. Peter, and the little Austrian came to MY gate and told me had a ticket inside because of "feeling sorry" for what he'd done in the last hour of his life, I'd spit in his face!

Just when you thought insanity was eradicated from the Earth, along comes another "Repent-and-be-saved" demagogue.

 

[cgannon64]

Originally posted by Xeven the God

Further more, don't be so ****ing condesending. It's like you want to start a flame war. Really, what is it with you and these religion threads? It's always the same: "I am Curt Sibling, your god doesn't exist, and you are an idiot."

I think we can replace all of Curt's religious posts with "Your God is dead and no one cares, if there's a hell I'll see you there."

j/k Curt.

 

[Pontiuth Pilate]

You need to learn to be tolerant of other peoples' beliefs, you really cool guy.

Yet another poster finely educated in the arcane science of logic. Tommy Aquinas himself couldn'ta done better! [apologies, Gannon but once you read his "straw", you'll agree with me.]