Will we ever see Burma/Myanmar in the Civ series?

[Bast]

Really hoping for it in the future expansions. The Shwedagon Pagoda was in Civ IV, it would make a great wonder addition as well. It would also make for a great religious/military civ. Thoughts?

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

There is a Mod Burma Civ available for Civ VI that is not bad: even has a partially animated Leader.

 

[Patine]

Really hoping for it in the future expansions. The Shwedagon Pagoda was in Civ IV, it would make a great wonder addition as well. It would also make for a great religious/military civ. Thoughts?

Well, at least one of the Burmese rulers and kingdoms repelled an invasion by none other than Kublai Khaqan himself, so that should count for something.

 

[Lord Lakely]

I want them in the game . Anawrahta and Bayinnaung are two leaders who would fit the Big Personality theme, the former as a Golden Age Builder, the latter as a Warmonger. I doubt we'll get them *before* Vietnam, but they'll show up sometime, I'm pretty sure of it.

 

[Patine]

I want them in the game . Anawrahta and Bayinnaung are two leaders who would fit the Big Personality theme, the former as a Golden Age Builder, the latter as a Warmonger. I doubt we'll get them *before* Vietnam, but they'll show up sometime, I'm pretty sure of it.

I may inquire on a related note - with "Bulgaria" being on your list, would the focus you intended be on Volga Bulgaria, the Danubian Khanate, or the Medieval Orthodox Christian Tsardom, out of curiosity? And also, how, how would you want anti-Semitic myths and conspiracy theories, and touchiness about them by modern Jews, mitigated in a portrayal of Khazaria, for marketing purposes? Legitimate questions, and not meant as accusatory.

 

[Lord Lakely]

Khazaria is an interesting civilization and that's why I want them in .There are a few portals on the internet that debunk the claims that they were savages or not even jewish. Evidence indicates that after the Khazar's conversion to Judaism, Ashkenazi jews migrated *to* Khazaria as it was a safer haven for them than, you know, the levant. They also founded the city of Kiev, which as a Jewish quarter that exists to this very day. I don't know how they would be portrayed, but they fill a niche no other civ can (a jewish civ and also a civ from north-west asia) and that's why I want them in.

As for Bulgaria, definitely the First Bulgarian Empire, ideally under Knyaz Boris or Tzar Simeon . They played a pivotal role in the spread of Christianity and the cultural development of pretty much every relevant slavic culture (cultures which to this day still use the alphabet invented by two Bulgarian monks under the patronage of the Bulgarian Knyaz) and would 100% merit inclusion. Bulgaria was the most powerful country in eastern europe in the 8th to 10th century AD, bar NONE and if Sweden can get in *twice* on similar terms (a 150 year window in which they were a dominant power), why wouldn't Bulgaria be extended the same courtesy? I doubt we'll get them in Civ6 on the basis of Hungary being in the game and Byzantium not being in the game yet, taking away their niches for military and religion, but that's fine, they can be in Civ 7 instead

 

[Patine]

Khazaria is an interesting civilization and that's why I want them in .There are a few portals on the internet that debunk the claims that they were savages or not even jewish. Evidence indicates that after the Khazar's conversion to Judaism, Ashkenazi jews migrated *to* Khazaria as it was a safer haven for them than, you know, the levant. They also founded the city of Kiev, which as a Jewish quarter that exists to this very day. I don't know how they would be portrayed, but they fill a niche no other civ can (a jewish civ and also a civ from north-west asia) and that's why I want them in.

As for Bulgaria, definitely the First Bulgarian Empire, ideally under Knyaz Boris or Tzar Simeon . They played a pivotal role in the spread of Christianity and the cultural development of pretty much every relevant slavic culture (cultures which to this day still use the alphabet invented by two Bulgarian monks under the patronage of the Bulgarian Knyaz) and would 100% merit inclusion. Bulgaria was the most powerful country in eastern europe in the 8th to 10th century AD, bar NONE and if Sweden can get in *twice* on similar terms (a 150 year window in which they were a dominant power), why wouldn't Bulgaria be extended the same courtesy? I doubt we'll get them in Civ6 on the basis of Hungary being in the game and Byzantium not being in the game yet, taking away their niches for military and religion, but that's fine, they can be in Civ 7 instead

But, but, you can't have Bulgarian Tsar Simeon - he's still alive:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simeon_Saxe-Coburg-Gotha

Sorry, couldn't resist. Just a joke. I knew exactly who you meant.

But those ideas sound very interesting, and Bulgaria often gets short shrift from games like Civ, and other TBS and RTS strategy games, and even by historians (probably due to a bad breaks history in the 20th Century as the sole loser of the Second Balkan War, a minor member of the Central Powers in WW1, a minor member of the Axis in WW2 (though Tsar Boris was the only European head-of-state sitting during WW2 given "Righteous Among Nations" status and a grove of trees native to Bulgaria planted in his honour Israel for his refusal, to the very end, to ship the Jews of Bulgaria to Hitler, even though it cost him his life), and then a minor Warsaw Pact nation - and I, too, have always felt they were unjustly overlooked ALL THE TIME.

 

[Guandao]

Khazaria might be hard to do, given the lack of info on their leaders and the Khazar language being poorly attested (you have to use Chuvash again and we know how badly Firaxis messed that one up).

I think Burma has a chance of representing mainland SE Asia in Civ7 (unless Siam returns). Firaxis should at least add City-States for the SE Asian Civs they won't add to Civ6 (ex: Yangon/Pagan, Sukhothai/Ayutthaya, Hanoi, Manila, Malacca/Kuala Lumpur, Singapore, Vientiane). There's only one SE Asian CS right now, Bandar Brunei.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I want them in the game . Anawrahta and Bayinnaung are two leaders who would fit the Big Personality theme, the former as a Golden Age Builder, the latter as a Warmonger. I doubt we'll get them *before* Vietnam, but they'll show up sometime, I'm pretty sure of it.

Right now, there are Mod Civ's for Civ VI of Burma with Baynnaung and Vietnam with the inevitable Sisters. Both are pretty militant, but well done.

Khazaria is an interesting civilization and that's why I want them in .There are a few portals on the internet that debunk the claims that they were savages or not even jewish. Evidence indicates that after the Khazar's conversion to Judaism, Ashkenazi jews migrated *to* Khazaria as it was a safer haven for them than, you know, the levant. They also founded the city of Kiev, which as a Jewish quarter that exists to this very day. I don't know how they would be portrayed, but they fill a niche no other civ can (a jewish civ and also a civ from north-west asia) and that's why I want them in.

As to Kiev/Kiyev, it's foundations are debated. Brooks claims it was a Khazar foundation or at least a 'client state' of the Khazars, but Slavic historians, of course, are adamant that it was a Slavic city/town/settlement going 'way back. Archeological evidence, so far, only confirms solid wooden structures on the site from the late 9th century CE, which is the Khazar Dominent period, but Kiev was making a trade treaty with Byzantium by 911 CE, which is a mighty quick rise from nothing in single generation. This, to me, argues for a much older settlement, whose archeological evidence remains buried under the modern city,
On the other hand, no question that in the 9th century CE, the settlement at Kiev, like everybody else in what is now southern Russia and Ukraine, was subservient in one form or the other to Khazaria.

Agree that Khazaria deserves a place, and would love to see, ideally, Novgorod and Svyatoslav's Kiev in the game as well...

 

[Patine]

Right now, there are Mod Civ's for Civ VI of Burma with Baynnaung and Vietnam with the inevitable Sisters. Both are pretty militant, but well done.



As to Kiev/Kiyev, it's foundations are debated. Brooks claims it was a Khazar foundation or at least a 'client state' of the Khazars, but Slavic historians, of course, are adamant that it was a Slavic city/town/settlement going 'way back. Archeological evidence, so far, only confirms solid wooden structures on the site from the late 9th century CE, which is the Khazar Dominent period, but Kiev was making a trade treaty with Byzantium by 911 CE, which is a mighty quick rise from nothing in single generation. This, to me, argues for a much older settlement, whose archeological evidence remains buried under the modern city,
On the other hand, no question that in the 9th century CE, the settlement at Kiev, like everybody else in what is now southern Russia and Ukraine, was subservient in one form or the other to Khazaria.

Agree that Khazaria deserves a place, and would love to see, ideally, Novgorod and Svyatoslav's Kiev in the game as well...

The irony with the Kiev founding theory is that a much later Veliki Knyaz of Kiev (Yaroslav the Wise, I think - I could be wrong, there) sailed a big army down a series of rivers, including the Dnieper and Don, and the conquered the Khazar Empire itself, ending it's existence as an independent polity, historically.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

The irony with the Kiev founding theory is that a much later Veliki Knyaz of Kiev (Yaroslav the Wise, I think - I could be wrong, there) sailed a big army down a series of rivers, including the Dnieper and Don, and the conquered the Khazar Empire itself, ending it's existence as an independent polity, historically.

From another context entirely: "Jonah Has Swallowed the Whale..."

 

[Guandao]

I can't see the Khazars being added to the game. Their language is poorly attested and there's barely any info on their leaders. The main reason people want them is to have a Civ that founds Judaism.

 

[Patine]

I can't see the Khazars being added to the game. Their language is poorly attested and there's barely any info on their leaders. The main reason people want them is to have a Civ that founds Judaism.

But they didn't "found" Judaism, they were converted to Judaism - at least they're ruling class. There is evidence (as scant as many evidence on the Khazars) that the nation itself was still HIGHLY multi-confessional, including large numbers of Orthodox and Nestorian Christians, Moslems, Buddhists, Manichaeans, Zoroastrians, Tengrists, Uatsdins, etc., even after the conversion, which seems, to this evidence, to have been restricted to the ruling class.