Willem V Oranje (EC) - A domination / conquest goal!!!

[Gumbolt]

Willem (EC)!! Let the games begin!!!

The Emperor Cookbook is a concurrent succession game series to help readers learn how to play and win at Emperor level in Civilization 4: Beyond the Sword, v3.19

Some of you may be familiar with the previous Monarchist Cookbook games. We decided to raise the level of difficulty to Emperor. Because we are always playing from the best save, this difficulty should be approximately equal to Monarch/Emperor level difficulty.

Our Emperor Cookbook game features Willem. We will be playing at Emperor difficulty, Epic, with a standard sized map. Huts and events are disabled for this game, as they tend to make things more random.

Here is the info on our leader, his unique unit and building as well as our starting position and settings:

Spoiler :

Our Fearless Leader: Willem V Oranje



UU:



UB:



Starting position:



Settings :

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Round one lasts from 4000 BC - 1500 BC.

Please play this Round and submit your Report into this thread by Saturday 6pm GMT 06/03/2010 if possible. (This time frame may change once game is up and running! Do post if you need more time!!)

IMPORTANT : Please use spoilers if you want to discuss opening strategies prior to starting the round.

At the end of your Round, please remember to name your save with your name, game and Round # & game date (i.e. "EC2 Round 1 MyName BC-1500.CivBeyondSwordSave"). (And please don't forget to attach it to your Round report, either! ) Please also state your usual difficulty of play.

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Roster:

YOU! - contributor, voter - our most important fixture, the readers who follow the threads and play along.

Now that we have upped the difficulty level, we will return to the 'best ball' system of selecting and playing saves. What this essentially means is that after we have completed each round, everyone will have a chance to vote on which save is in the best position. The winning save will be used for the next round.

If there is any player who is strong at Emperor+ level, it would be great to have you post your saves to show us how it's done. However, I request that any of you who realize your round was far superior remove your save from the voting. This rule is intended to ensure that the game doesn't get into a overly strong winning position after only a few rounds (because what fun is that? ).

Voting Rules:

1. You may NOT vote on your own save (but you are encouraged to state the strengths and weaknesses of your save).
2. For your vote to count as winning save you are expected to have voted for 3 other saves where possible. There is an element of fair play expected from those that vote and tactical voting is to be discouraged.
3. Only those who have posted a round may vote (those who are shadowing are always encouraged to express their opinion!)
4. Don't vote on a save that has voluntarily been removed from the running by the person who submitted it.
5. At the end of each round you can vote on 3 saves for first, second and third place. I believe that these votes should be made publicly in order to allow for as much discussion as possible. I strongly encourage you to explain why you are voting for a particular save. This is one of the best ways to learn, and that's what this game is all about! If you feel uncomfortable voting publicly, PM me with your vote.

After a couple days for voting and discussion a winner will be declared and we will move on to the next round using the winners save.

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A special shout out goes to Kossin who provided us with the map!

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And with that, let the Game begin...

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Intrathread links (ToC): (note, the turn sets are subject to change, this is a tentative schedule to get this first round underway, we are still trying to find the best length for each round)

Round 0: The starting save (this post)
Round 1: 4000 BC - 1500 BC- Playing
Round 2: 1500 BC - 400 AD- upcoming
Round 3: 400 AD - 1100 AD- upcoming
Round 4: 1100 AD - 1500 AD - upcoming
Round 5: 1500 AD - 1700 AD - upcoming
Round 6: 1700 AD - 1820 AD - upcoming
Round 7: 1820 AD - 2050 AD - upcoming

 

[Gumbolt]

Our aim on this game will be to go for a conquest/ domination win. This marks a change from our usual Cookbook.

If at a later round it appears this target will not be possible we will adapt our game plan. We are trying to avoid an AP or diplomatic victory as this has been the last few Cookbook games. We are out for Ai blood now to prove our metal.

If you spot any problems report them ASAP so we can make changes if need be.

 

[lymond]

Ah...another EC and now with a goal. Sounds like someone is listening to me.

here's my shot:

Spoiler :

Well, not the greatest of land here but there are some decent resources in the vicinity and it appears we don't have to worry about blocking too much early. Lost first warrior to a bear but think I did decent with land scouting. I have a warrior east try to get as far as he can but he's dodging archers at the moment.

I settled the copper/fish north first as opposed to silver south to get axe for barbs and some cottages going soon. I'm making a play for the GL now mixing in necessary builds like the current worker that will finish this turn.

Started with Mining>BW> Sailing> Wheel and now a push to Priesthood for Oracle. It may be hard with condom man to the north, but at least we have marble. Builds were WB>WB>Worker>Warrior>Lighthouse>Settler with some flipping in between to grow.

I settle silver in such a way to get fresh water and some hills without coast tiles. Not a great spot but can get a few farms in and lumbermills later.

I had to whip one to many times due to barbs. I think with the location, settling again is not urgent until Oracle. I like Metal Casting or Monarchy as a free tech.

The Whales/furs to the west may make a good Maoi city but there are several decent locations for that. I'd like to settle more Easterly next like the crab/sheep for resources and to brighten up that area.

I'd say the one thing most remiss here in my game is sea scouting, but I tend to focus on more important things this early although I probably could have built a scout galley or work boat if the barbs didn't scare me. They should not be a problem now though.

Note that the GL is in the queue in the cap with quite a few hammers invested - including some whip overflow.

 

[kossin]

Okay, guess I'll get the ball rolling.

Discussion is strongly encouraged! The "why" is often more important than the "how".

Looking at the start, there's no doubt the start location is way down to the south, near the pole. If you're not familiar with Tectonics map, you can generate a few and look at them in worldbuilder or check the map generation guide in the articles subforum.
Generally, there's a lot of water, a lot of hills and quite a bit of mountains.

The silver is an interesting tile here. It's a tundra tile meaning 1 less hammer. To get it in the BFC, you have to give up:
-fresh water
-1 turn to move
-1 hill
-3 tundra tiles become in the BFC

But you gain:
-1 riverside grassland
-1 forest
-early silver as commerce+financial

What should the initial techs be? Willem starts with Fishing and Agriculture. Moving the warrior should reveal if there's a grain-based or AH resource available or not for a worker-first opening. Otherwise, a couple workboats first looks like the best way to open up. There are plenty of trees so this suggests BW shouldn't be delayed too much for chops/whips.

For exploration. North, northeast, west or east? I'm not going to discuss this as I know the map a bit too much.

Lastly, what should be the goal of the first 100 turns? This will largely be decided by exploration as well and/or what the AIs do.

 

[lymond]

@kos

Spoiler :

You also give up the UB in the cap which pretty much made my decision for me. With good ole Willie being financial I'm not overly concerned about Silver in the cap early. Moving south just puts too much crap land in the cap

Next comment is why this is in spoilers:

Too bad the north fish isn't better positioned for us so that we could settle on the river north missing the UB.

I'm also thinking that I'd rather have settled the fish/win to the north east as opposed to the crap silver city to work more cottages. Is the crap silver city worth two cities working several cottages early in the north?

 

[kossin]

@lymond
The Dike doesn't require the city to be riverside, it can be coastal as well.

As to the spoiler part...

Spoiler :

The crap silver city is really crap. Unfortunately, the only decent way to settle it outside the capital is to steal the crabs tile from the capital to have a useful city. IMO getting it with the capital is the way to go... working the silver by 2500BC is huge.

 

[Gumbolt]

Ah...another EC and now with a goal. Sounds like someone is listening to me.

Partly listening and partly making sure we dont become a series of Cheese and diplomation. If someone does gain a AP win or a diplomatic win we will ignore this. In fact we will go out of our way to ensure this does not happen. Abstaining from votes and just not clicking that diplo vote should we control the UN or AP.

Of course I have not seen the map beyond the picture of a settler and warrior I uploaded.

(I just completed a different WVO game tonight and just after HC got liberalism (Mistake on my part going for steel and economics first) 9-10 turns later I have diplomatic win on the continent. it almost feels like cheating at times. Adding the Ap was a mistake to the game really.

In terms of this game: The UU looks like a powerful early sea ship with a cargo of 4 enabling more troop transports. Almost as good as a transport but weaker.

Whats the advantage of fresh water tiles?? Is it just health bonus or does it allow spread of irrigation?

 

[lymond]

@lymond
The Dike doesn't require the city to be riverside, it can be coastal as well.

As to the spoiler part...

Spoiler :

The crap silver city is really crap. Unfortunately, the only decent way to settle it outside the capital is to steal the crabs tile from the capital to have a useful city. IMO getting it with the capital is the way to go... working the silver by 2500BC is huge.

Man, I always forget that about the Dike

edit: @ gumbolt - yes, I generally like that for the health bonus and in the case of rivers - the levee.

The UU can be good and this map may favor it and an Astro beeline (even more than the last game)

 

[kossin]

Whats the advantage of fresh water tiles?? Is it just health bonus or does it allow spread of irrigation?

The health is pretty much the only thing for WvO as the Dike doesn't require riverside. Settling away from it doesn't change the way irrigation works (although it allows for one more riverside farm or cottage).

 

[Norvin_Green]

Thanks for setting up the game Gumbolt and thanks to kossin for the map.

My attempt:

Spoiler :

Decided to settle in place and went wb>worker>wb>warrior>settler. Teched mining>bw>masonry>wheel>myst>poly (had hopes of ToA which once I saw Ramesses I should have abandoned)>priesthood with hopes of the oracle to take metal casting (probably will regret this too as its 12 turns until Pottery and 12 until I complete Oracle but there are some chops on the way. I might be able to shave that down by MMing some tiles for commerce.) From here I'd head to writing to get some GS to try and get an early astronomy.

 

[Kadazzle]

First Round

Spoiler :

Moved the settler 1S to gain the Silver. We also gained Marble, nice .
First tech is Mining. First build is a Workboat while working the most hammer producing tile. Mining is needed for Bronze Working, which we'll need to fend off barbs to the south.

After out first Workboat we went for a second one (but we made sure to grow to size 2 first). This way we could work both of the plain forested tiles to get our Workboat out the quickest.

After BW we went The Wheel to hook up the Marble and the Silver. After the Workboat we went for a Warrior as my original scouting warrior died and I needed to explore the south (grew to size 3).

Went for a Worker afterwards for obvious reasons, then another warrior to increase the happy cap. We then teched Masonry to shoot for The Great Lighthouse as we can see someone's borders, but no one has made contact yet.

Interesting thing I did was I went for another Worker after the Warrior. This gave me time to tech up to Sailing, and the Marble tile + all of the forests will take up a lot of worker turns. Added to that, I'd prefer to nab The Great Lighthouse then Settler spam, with pre-roads already built in.

Went Warrior -> (Size 5) Settler. Part chopped the Settler so Sailing could have time to come in.



2 pop-whipped the Settler once Sailing was ready, overflow went into a Lighthouse. Start teching Mysticism. 1 pop whipped the Lighthouse, went for The Great Lighthouse after (while now teching Meditation).

Missed out on The Great Lighthouse : /. Must be an Industrious leader somewhere. Went Priesthood -> Writing, and after I lost TGL, switched to The Oracle (for a hopeful Code of Law nab).



Future plans (if picked, obviously) would be to settle the fish site, and the riverside grassland site if I win The Oracle and open borders to Rammy. Game didn't go according to plan, and I'm sure someone could play a better round.

 

[GreenShift84]

Thought I'd give this one a go:

To 1500BC:

Spoiler :

Moved warrior SE and revealed marble. After some debate decided to settle in place anyway; my thinking was I could get a city in for the silver and avoid those nasty tundra in the cap/keep fresh water. Looking back getting the silver probably would be better...

Started on a workboat while researching mining->BW. First workboat went to the fish, then worked the fish while growing to size 2 (building workboat). At 2 started on worker as he would finish and move to the NE forest exactly in time with BW to start chopping. Then chop finished 2nd workboat and started on a warrior while cap grows for a little whip action. Worker moves to chop forest on the NW hill. Put that chop into a settler instead of the warrior, switched back to finish warrior, then switched to slavery when I could whip the settler for 2 pop:


Still unsure what I think of that opening, but felt like trying it for a little variety. Research after BW went Sailing->Wheel->Masonry->Pottery->Writing(in 4 or 5). I thought I might try a lazyish attempt at the GLH, but that idea got shot down as it was built in 2100BC. I still like Sailing, but Masonry could have been postponed for earlier Writing.

My worker built a mine on the plains hill to save a turning moving vs the grass hill, improved 2nd cities copper, prechopped forest in Amsterdam until Wheel came in to connect the copper. Meanwhile Amsterdam builds warrior-lighthouse(whipped)-warrior-worker-settler while Utrecht builds a workboat off the copper then lighthouse->settler.

Second worker mined the grass hill then quarried the marble (for the upcoming city of Rotterdam and to get some use from Masonry I guess...) and the original worker builds a farm at Utrecht and chops the hill forest into the settler:


The Hague was founded on top of the wine and Rotterdam 2S of the fish.

Meanwhile Ramses was keeping himself busy, building Stonehenge and founding Judaism.

Got two workboats out for the new cities, they can be seen in the next screenshot in route to the fish. Fit another warrior somewhere for barbs (which reminds me, I have yet to see a single barb warrior or archer...not really complaining but ) and started an axe thats in progress in Amsterdam. New cities building granaries. Current situation:



Skimped on workers with only 2 currently, but early sailing and lots of seafood makes it better/acceptable. Set Utrecht for another worker and probably another one after the axe in Amsterdam. Plan would be to head up Aesthetics->Lit for Great Library, seems obvious as the marble is already improved (though not connected) and two forest in Amsterdam are pre-chopped already (another plus from the half-hearted GLH attempt )

Bulbing to Astronomy seems a good idea and the three Calendar resources+Whale also point this way I would think. The silver needs to be hooked up soon for the happy as well as settling a city by the fur/whale.

Overall I'm only somewhat pleased with the progress so far, I imagine an opening that grabs the silver could easily be better (allowing much earlier Great Library, hence Astronomy), but never hurts to add a save for comparison I figure. Also game crashed once at 2175BC so had to reload to previous turn and replicate the moves.

 

[mariogreymist]

What the hey:

To 1500BC:

Spoiler :

took one look around and decided this was a glh start, but it was not to be. It went right as I finished my lighthouse in Amsterdam...that was early! Hoping someone else got it done, because that would be a game breaker here. But the start is solid, with copper hooked up, as well as marble, silver and the seafood in the two opening city sites. Settled 1s for the silver. Research was mining/bw/sailing/masonry/wheel/pottery/writing. Now heading for Monarchy.

By mariogreymist at 2010-03-01

 

[Jaybone]

Should be fun, I'll give this one a shot tomorrow

 

[Soirana]

Spoiler :

Step one build GLH
Step two build Colossus
Step three perform act of euthanasia for useless AI.

Maps like this are damn boring...

 

[GreenShift84]

@Soirana

Spoiler :

Have you played the map yet? Those nice plans sometimes have a way of not working out...which seems to be the trend so far...

But maybe you mean this in regards to the cookbook format, in which case it's much more likely to get a save that nabs the GLH, then I definitely agree. Easy solution is not to vote for a save with the GLH then

 

[pnp_dredd]

Spoiler :

Early goals are GLH and BW for chopping/rushing/axes and possibly a quick rush. Tech path Mining-BW-Sailing then wheel-pottery-writing as we'll be getting a lot of our production from whipping, so granaries are important, plus financial makes cottages a no brainer.

Built WB-worker-WB early while I teched BW.

1850bc complete lighthouse, realise that I need masonry for the GLH. I complete Writing first though (only 1 turn off).

1675bc complete my first galley.

1550bc discover copper on the plains hill near Amsterdam! 2 extra each turn!

1500bc stats:
3 cities:
Amsterdam has granary/lighthouse
Utrecht has library/granary/lighthouse
The Hague can share the riverside cottages with Utrecht to ensure that they mature even during heavy whipping.
3 workers
2 warriors
1 galley
90/300 into the GLH
12/turn sustainable but I just whipped both Amsterdam and Utrecht to 2 pop, so that will greatly increase as they grow back.
Have Mining-BW-Sailing-wheel-pottery-writing-Masonry. Alphabet in <<37 turns.

I just realised that Oracle may be a good move on this map, but I'm committed to GLH now, and over the course of the game the GLH will produce more beakers than the Oracle. Oracle may still be a possibility if we can trade for the prereqs. Need to find another civilisation with that galley to get the most out of Alphabet.

 

[pnp_dredd]

...and I will keep up the tradition of forgetting to attach my save.

 

[Gumbolt]

...and I will keep up the tradition of forgetting to attach my save.

I remembered to add the save to the thread this time too.

 

[Gumbolt]

Had a go

Spoiler :

Settled 1s not sure if best move or not but least i can use the silver. We can always move capital later!

Went for a workboat first but took the 15 turn approach. Planted WB on fish and went about a warrior.teched towards BW and whipped out second workboat growing city. May have whipped my first settler too for 2 pop.

Overall 2 cities and working towards GLH. I think other saves have got more cities out than me. I was unlucky not to pop the copper compared to other saves. Hug advantage. Should probably have used a wb to scout land.

18 turns off GLH with some chopping to go. Hope I get it.

Will add some pics later (2)