Wind/Nuclear/Solar/Hydro Plant ideas

[pineappledan]

Re: processes - literally every game at the end I'm working processes in most of my cities. I do wonder if such a large boost will affect the relative balance of game speed and wincons though.

Currently, 4 ==> 1/// (25% conversion)
Every +25% towards Processes increases actual resource conversion rate by 6.25%

• +33% towards Processes makes 3 ==> 1/// (33% conversion)
  
• +60% towards Processes makes 5 ==> 2/// (40% conversion)
  
• +100% towards Processes makes 2 ==> 1/// (50% conversion)

So you can see how the +% number looks impressive, but has a fairly small overall impact, because it takes +40% modifier to go from 40% to 50% process conversion. I'm not sure what the sweet spot is, but jumping from 25% to 50% conversion in super-late game seems sensible to me.

I'd only change the Nuclear plant to give a big boost to military production instead of the great person ability, even if only to specific units (notably, nuclear missile and giant death robot).

That seems counterintuitive to me. If you are using your uranium to build nuclear plants then you AREN'T building bombs and GDRs, ie. you are already opting for infrastructure over military. If the building that requires uranium mainly helped with unit production then I would just save my uranium for better units instead.

 

[Legen]

That seems counterintuitive to me. If you are using your uranium to build nuclear plants then you AREN'T building bombs and GDRs, ie. you are already opting for infrastructure over military. If the building that requires uranium mainly helped with unit production then I would just save my uranium for better units instead.

That already happens with Seaports and Ironclads, but players still build seaports nonetheless. I don't think a Nuclear Plant would change much.

One thing we could add to the Nuclear Plant is to require it in the city in order to purchase uranium-related units, just like the seaport is required for the latest naval units of its era.

 

[gwennog]

Is it not possible to add a new stategic resource like Enginseer propose? : electricity.
But this resource becomes necessary for industrial and later buildings and Wonders.
Each plant (coal, wind, nuclear, thermic, tidal,...) produce a certain amount of electricity (example coal : 5, nuclear 10, solar : 2/desert tile,...) but have conditions to work and are exclusives.
Factories start with coal but can then use electricity. Buildings and Wonders can only be built if you have enough electricity and only work as long as it's available.
Of course, this requires repositioning some of the plants in the technology tree.

 

[Stalker0]

PADs latest list is pretty good. I will reiterate I think the nuclear plant is perfect the way it is today. If you want to add in the urbanization and processes as the “standard fare” that’s fine, but I don’t think they need more extra. They give raw hammers, and it’s a fine effective building. But the other buildings look good, the tidal plant may actually be pretty strong for an island city

 

[Stalker0]

Is it not possible to add a new stategic resource like Enginseer propose?

I come back to why though? Why do we need a new strategic, we have aluminum and uranium already.

I think we are completely capable of buffing plants without needing a whole new subsystem to the game.

 

[pineappledan]

The issue is too many icons on the top bar of the UI. Adding a new strategic resource would clutter things too much, so the idea of a new Electric Power resource got nixed.

We could just leave the Nuclear plant alone; I just figured adding GPPs on building completion would be a way to differentiate the building as the GP plant, as opposed to juts making it the no-terrain plant, with a big modifier

Spoiler Nuclear Plant options :

Nuclear Plant (Requires Uranium):

• +100% Production towards Processes
• 2 Specialists no longer produce Urbanization Unhappiness.
• +10 , +33%
  
• On Completion, 5% of the Cost of Buildings from the Modern Era or Later are converted into GEngineer and GScientist points

Nuclear Plant (Requires Uranium):

• +100% Production towards Processes
• 2 Specialists no longer produce Urbanization Unhappiness.
• +10 , +50%

 

[Bhawb]

Nuclear as a GPP plant isn't a bad idea. It forces people to choose between GPPs, which are pretty important for non-domination victories, and Uranium for military.

 

[doublex55]

Nuclear as a GPP plant isn't a bad idea. It forces people to choose between GPPs, which are pretty important for non-domination victories, and Uranium for military.

It just feels really weird having it give a bonus to processes and also to buildings. I would rather it give the GPP while working processes.

 

[wobuffet]

Nuclear as a GPP plant isn't a bad idea. It forces people to choose between GPPs, which are pretty important for non-domination victories, and Uranium for military.

I see what you're saying, but this doesn't seem like a strategically interesting choice to me in most games. In the very late game you are either pumping out units and nicking those last couple Capitals, or you're pumping out Science/Culture/Diplomats for those respective victories. I don't see "GPPs or Uranium-using units?" being an interesting decision very often.

I have the same reservation about @pineappledan's Processes-boosting idea. Solid idea fun-wise, but strategically not super-interesting: you are practically forced to make a bunch of the Plants that line up with your predetermined Victory type and run those Processes for the last 3 turns of the game or whatever.

tl;dr: Plant boosts that line up 1-to-1 with different Victory types do not present strategically interesting situations/choices.

 

[wobuffet]

Here's a revised and simplified "2x2" plan:

Each of the four Plants is either

• Resource-locked (with a % Production boost)
• or Geo-locked (with corresponding Terrain bonuses, say )

AND either

• Gold-friendly (free fuel! Say, 0 Maintenance and Instant Gold upon constructing anything)
• or employment-friendly (less Unhappiness from Engineers, or perhaps just 2 Unhappiness-free Specialists)

The idea is that Gold versus Unhappiness-free Specialists is a contextual, strategically interesting choice in most games (both in Domination games and non-Domination ones). And locking each Plant to either a Resource or local Terrain is more interesting too (like Train Station vs Seaport: need Railroads or Coast), and you can plan ahead to either one in many games.

 

[pineappledan]

@wobuffet reductions in gold maintenance for local cities is impossible. I actually asked G about this just last month. Gold maintenance just isn’t calculated that way.

 

[Bhawb]

I see what you're saying, but this doesn't seem like a strategically interesting choice to me in most games. In the very late game you are either pumping out units and nicking those last couple Capitals, or you're pumping out Science/Culture/Diplomats for those respective victories. I don't see "GPPs or Uranium-using units?" being an interesting decision very often.

It obviously depends, but I pretty commonly have last-second wars going on while everyone tries to make a final hail mary to cut down the leader and win. If you aren't already in the lead and pretty sure you're going to win, chances are you want to declare war on the leader and push them down to give yourself time. Uranium is the ultimate resource for that, since nuking someone can immediately delay them from winning by a significant amount. I'm not saying it will always be a choice, that's fine and is the case with every other strategic resource that goes towards buildings and units; sometimes you really have to choose between the buildings and unit

I have the same reservation about @pineappledan's Processes-boosting idea. Solid idea fun-wise, but strategically not super-interesting: you are practically forced to make a bunch of the Plants that line up with your predetermined Victory type and run those Processes for the last 3 turns of the game or whatever.

tl;dr: Plant boosts that line up 1-to-1 with different Victory types do not present strategically interesting situations/choices.

His most recent proposal was +100% to Processes, not any one specific process. Each plant would be slightly different, but overall you'd be choose between building Nuclear or non-Nuclear plant, and if non-Nuclear figure out which plant would give the most yields for each city's situation. Relatively straightforward, but now every city has the opportunity to make use of a plant in a meaningful way.

OTOH, geolocking plants isn't really interesting either, nor is gold vs specialists. You'll know whether you need more gold or specialists very easily, it is completely dependent on wincon and choices you've already made like policy trees and ideologies. And geolocked plants aren't interesting, you shouldn't have to think about what will happen in the Modern Era during Ancient Era settling. The plants already only affect certain tiles, it isn't like someone is going to somehow abuse a desert-only plant without any desert.

 

[chicorbeef]

Just want to point out the obvious-now that we can only have one plant in a city, Nuclear/Solar outclass the other two.

I think the +50% both offer is simple and strong enough. The other two need to be brought up though.

We could probably just add +25% modifiers to Wind/Hydro and switch/bump up the yields (make Hydro +3 /// per River tiles, make Wind +3// per Plains/Grassland tile without Hills or Features like Open Sky). How does that sound?

About Resources. I think the current balance is fine, in fact, I wouldn't mind making Solar cost Aluminium as well just to balance things out.

I think Medical Labs are pretty weak, btw. Perhaps the Urbanization reduction can be relegated to them instead of Plants?

 

[Stalker0]

I think Medical Labs are pretty weak, btw. Perhaps the Urbanization reduction can be relegated to them instead of Plants?

I would love if Medical Labs just provided a straight +1 population or something. More and more, I think the notion of instant yields for late game buildings makes a lot of sense. Its the easiest way to guarantee their usefulness without providing them crazy amounts of yields.

 

[FaarmAnimal]

I think some people are focusing too much on plants being late game.

On one extreme, not everyone plays with a time limit and on the other, most games are already won well before people build plants. They don't have to be overpowered to pay themselves off in some crazy last dozen turns. It rarely is going to work out that way.

I enjoy an extended late game and I still support a more straightforward production boost without too many bells and whistles.

 

[Bhawb]

I think some people are focusing too much on plants being late game.

On one extreme, not everyone plays with a time limit and on the other, most games are already won well before people build plants. They don't have to be overpowered to pay themselves off in some crazy last dozen turns. It rarely is going to work out that way.

I enjoy an extended late game and I still support a more straightforward production boost without too many bells and whistles.

They are objectively late game; they are unlocked in the last couple of eras of the game. VP is balanced around non-Domination victories happening roughly at certain points in the game. That is why they are tech-locked, to prevent you from winning too quickly, and also why there are things later in the game that massively enhance victories that are taking "too long" like the Internet.

It is fine if people play outside of the standard conditions, but those are not what VP is balanced around, and so those other conditions are largely irrelevant.

 

[wobuffet]

@wobuffet reductions in gold maintenance for local cities is impossible. I actually asked G about this just last month. Gold maintenance just isn’t calculated that way.

Ah, bummer. Coulda sworn there was a Wonder with that effect or something.

Borrowed @Stalker0 's idea and edited post to give Instant .

It obviously depends, but I pretty commonly have last-second wars going on while everyone tries to make a final hail mary to cut down the leader and win. ... sometimes you really have to choose between the buildings and unit

We're basically in agreement here.

"Should I use Uranium for a Plant or for a Unit/Bomb?" is interesting.
But the situation in the post you were responding to — "Should I use Uranium to get Great Person Points or build a Unit/Bomb?" — is usually an easy decision depending on your chosen win condition: not interesting.

His most recent proposal was +100% to Processes, not any one specific process. Each plant would be slightly different, but overall you'd be choose between building Nuclear or non-Nuclear plant, and if non-Nuclear figure out which plant would give the most yields for each city's situation...

geolocking plants isn't really interesting either, nor is gold vs specialists. You'll know whether you need more gold or specialists very easily, it is completely dependent on wincon and choices you've already made like policy trees and ideologies.

If I can predict what Plant you're going to want based solely on what Victory you're going for, it's not an interesting decision.
Under the Process-boosting plan,

If you're going Science Victory, you're going to build as many Science-boosting Plants as you can.
If you're going Culture Victory, you're going to go as many Culture-boosting Plants as you can.
If you're going Domination Victory, you're probably going to go as many Production-boosting Plants as you can.​

Boring.

Geo-locking means Terrain is, at the very least, one more consideration beyond Victory Type: is this enough Desert tiles to go Solar in these two Cities?

And whether you prefer some more Gold or some Unhappiness-free Specialists will also depend on context, game to game and city to city. Domination games are often short on both Happiness (from War Weariness) and Gold (Unit maint). In peaceful games, maybe your Happiness is probably fine but anything boosting Scientists/WAMs would be great, but so would Gold (because late-game building maint gets expensive).

It is fine if people play outside of the standard conditions, but those are not what VP is balanced around, and so those other conditions are largely irrelevant.

Definitely.

I would love if Medical Labs just provided a straight +1 population or something. More and more, I think the notion of instant yields for late game buildings makes a lot of sense. Its the easiest way to guarantee their usefulness without providing them crazy amounts of yields.

This is a great point. Late-game buildings should be like mini-Wonders: you should typically build them for their particular effects, not per-turn incremental yield gains.

 

[FaarmAnimal]

They are objectively late game; they are unlocked in the last couple of eras of the game. VP is balanced around non-Domination victories happening roughly at certain points in the game. That is why they are tech-locked, to prevent you from winning too quickly, and also why there are things later in the game that massively enhance victories that are taking "too long" like the Internet.

It is fine if people play outside of the standard conditions, but those are not what VP is balanced around, and so those other conditions are largely irrelevant.

Not irrelevant.

There has been much debate about this. Specifically that VP should not force one play style.

 

[wobuffet]

Not irrelevant.

There has been much debate about this. Specifically that VP should not force one play style.

Play styles are things like "Rapid expansion," "Swordsman rush," and "Ally all City-States."
"Playing to win" is not a play style; it's a baseline assumption. The whole idea of "balancing" the mod proceeds on the assumption that the player's goal is to win.

 

[FaarmAnimal]

Play styles are things like "Rapid expansion," "Swordsman rush," and "Ally all City-States."
"Playing to win" is not a play style; it's a baseline assumption. The whole idea of "balancing" the mod proceeds on the assumption that the player's goal is to win.

Who said "playing to win" is a play style? Seems like you are straying here.

I will just reiterate my original point was that overpowering plants might not be a good idea.

It is fair enough to balance the game around the default conditions, I genuinely don't have a problem with that. It is merely a question of flexibility - too overpowered and it breaks the game for those who play without a time limit.