Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by RedRalph, Jan 26, 2008.
Not quite the same.
America has never had to go through any of this. Hardly any American immigrants have not been "Western European" in the past, apart from the imported slaves and they have taken on their own version of the European culture as well just like Latinos have.
One million people in the Netherlands are first or second generation muslim immigrant. On American scale this would be 30 million people with some mayor cities being 1/3 to 1/2 muslim it is totally uncomparable, and Americans who say it is are only showing their ignorance about what is going on in Western Europe.
Yeah well welcome to the world of increased global migration, and it's not going away.
And with Western Europe having centuries of history of invading and colonsing many peoples around the world I say good on you.
Well you should know, thats the way Canada was created
Nonsense. Colonial countries have been dealing with other races and cultures before your nation was even born, so please, take your patronising attitude somewhere else.
I have to repeat it once again - America has NEVER dealt with a strong migration wave from culturally VERY different part of the world. Most of your previous experinces with immigration were with people coming to you from Europe. In the cases where they've not been culturally related to the Anglo-Saxon population, Americans reacted aggressively. They treated the Chinese workers as crap, they treated black people as ever more worthless crap, they committed a mass genocide and ethnic cleansing against the Native American population etc. In the last decades you face an influx of Latin American population, which is not that different from you (similar religion and culture), but you still react negatively.
If you had to face an influx of Muslims in the same numbers, I can't even imagine your reaction.
Do we have to learn something about immigration from the Americans? No, since their experiences with it are largely irrelevant to the present situation in Europe.
Exactly. Some Americans obviously believe in some sort of natural superiority of their nation in the matter of immigration, which is nothing but a delusion.
Right. Keep believing you're special. Fact is America spent most of its history with a significant minority of non-white origin. And while they were rather forcibly assimilated, the centuries of abuse and exclusion resulted in the development of a semi-unique culture of their own, complete with the inherent distrust of authority, justified hostility towards the establishment and allegations of institutional (some real, some imagined, some exaggerated) discrimination that some of your immigrants have today.
'Those so-and-so's just cause crime, murder, steal. They're gonna take our women and do nasty things to them. They can't control themselves and they're a threat to our way of life!!", yeah...we went through that. To a large extent, we overcame that. The fact is we confronted racial turmoil before most of Europe had ever heard of it.
Different cultures? Done that. Say what you like about the fact that most of them were 'western' already, but alot of the stuff I said above was applied to every new major immigrant group. The Irish are gonna steal are jobs. The chinese are gonna drug our women. Those filthy eastern europeans don't even speak English and don't want to learn!! And the Mexicans!
Seriously, we've been there, done that. And it hasn't been the 'pick of the litter' either. For most of America's history the influx of immigrants was MASSIVE and filled almost exclusively with the poor, uneducated, and sometimes disenfranchised. Your castoffs. The rest of the world's castoffs.
But since we were a new enough nation without quite as much cultural baggage, we were able to adapt the definition of what makes an 'American' eventually. The European preconceptions of what makes a Frenchman, Englishman, or a German will probably never (least not in the foreseeable future) apply to people who look noticeably different. Could be 3rd generation, wear the cloths, speak the language, listen to the music, know the slang and obey the customs...but even an openminded European probably isn't going to see a black person and think 'Frenchman'.
But in the states, so long as the dress and speech matches the locality, it typically doesn't matter black, white, asian or hispanic...one is accepted as American as the next. Yeah there's still bigotry and bias, but almost noone is saying 'You're not American because you're black/brown/etc' An hispanic who speaks fluent English will generally be considered as American as the whitest, most anglo, gated community trust-fund baby. I suspect it'll be quite a while before much of Europe reaches that level of integration.
Now this isn't saying that Europeans will hate or mistreat these people, simply that they're unlikely to ever (near future) think of them as Europeans. And I think that might be part of the reason that integration into American culture has been so successful despite countless influxes of different immigrants throughout the past. The definition of what makes an American is flexible enough to cover any race or ethnicity and so new immigrant groups are more receptive to 'drinking the koolaid'.
Yeah, dealing with them as conquered subjects on their own native territory. Or transfering them from one colonial entity to another. How many were invited back to the homeland to mingle with their 'rulers'? Fact is, most of Europe didn't see significant non-white immigration til the 50's and 60's when they started looking for cheap labor. The only people who 'dealt' with other races and cultures were the few that actually settled or administrated those lands. Those back home simply read about those 'other races' in the newspapers.
Indeed, the irony is not lost on me.
I think you're both under and overestimating our problems.
America does have a great deal of problems with illegal immigrants. (Mostly Hispanic immigrants, simply because they make up a majority of illegal immigrants) Right now there are hundreds of gangs, especially on the west coast, made up mostly of Latino's battling it out with black gangs in the inner cities. It hasn't boiled over into the kind of full scale rioting you see in France - because the last time that hapened, the National Guard was called in - but it's not as trivial as you think.
But, America has less trouble with the kinds of people you talk about in your third paragraph. (I'm not so sure all those things are all so bad, depending on how you mean them) Certainly not worth mentioning in a discussion of this sort. Fred Phelps is an annoyance, but he doesn't destroy property or attack people. Which is too bad in a way, because then he'd get sent to prison.
I don't believe that we are superior I simply believe that both of the systems are incredibly flawed and I perssonally am not going "Damn Mexicans lets put up a electric fence." (See post above for example.) While you however very clearly have showed yourself to be self superior in the past with topics regarding the Roma.
Ironically enough, I'm actually pretty moderate on this issue. (To the right of the Democratic candidates, to the left of most or all of the Republicans) Is it racist or partisan, though, to suggest that widespread illegal immigration is dangerous? I'm not saying all, or even most illegal immigrants are criminals or wouldn't make good citizens. But even if 95% are fine people who would be allowed in if we expanded our ludicrously strict legal immigration quotas (Which I also favor doing - man, am I rasist!) that still leaves an awful lot of criminals coming in that we can't control.
Last year, there were about a million people who entered into this country illegally. If 95% of them were perfectly law abiding and have broken no law except entering illegally, and necer will, that's still 50,000 criminals in one year alone that we wouldn't otherwise have had if we were controlling our border the way we should. Are you telling me that isn't worth worrying about?
So why don't you actually think about things, and not make presumptuous, bigoted judgements before condemning others, OK?
I'm taking bets on what page the words "you racist" are going to appear on first. Any takers?
Yeah, me. Ten billion Euro says it'll be page two.
So what exactly are all the cultural differences between all the European immigrants in the US? That one likes more garlic in their food and the other less, or that one likes their beer in pints and the other in liters. And what is cultural different about the blacks in the US? that they like fried chicken more then the whites? Those are all petty minute cultural differences compared to the clash radical islam and western liberalism are going through in Western Europe.
You talk like this is the first time Europe has been dealing with immigration. Well I got news for you, Europeans have been migrating in Europe on a large scale when when America wasn't even a country. And in the 20th Century a lot of Western European have taken on etinically diverse people from their former colonies without much trouble. Why? Because they may be black or Asian but they still have a Western culture.
The trouble starts when you have massive immigration from countries whose cultural values are totally different from yours, people who have a hard time dealing with values we in the west take for granted. And also when this clash is also happening on geo-political scale at the same time. In Holland we had muslims celebrating on 9-11, In Brittain their own muslim youth blew uptheir fellow countrymen because they saw the country they were born and raised in as an enemy.
Im not acting like we are special, you are talking like the US is somehow special. And sure the US is a great example of an etnically diverse "melting pot", but the problems we in Europe are facing now cannot be compared to the problems the US was facing when the "irish" or "itialians" were coming of the boat.
I'd say it's time for some payout..
Off topic: Doesn't that depend on how many posts you chose to display per page?
Today, having Italians and Irish immigrate along with the British isn't a big deal. Go back 200 years, and it was, and was a much bigger deal than you're letting on. You should stop pretending to know anything about American history, because you clearly don't if you seriously minimize the differences between different national groups down to "ones that like more garlic in their food and others less" or "ones that like their beer in pints and the other in liters". You can look at how things are today with the eyes of a man in the 21st century, and get a semi-accurate reading. Try doing that with the 18th or 19th centuries, and you just look like a fool.
Yeah, the problem with this is that you're completely wrong - there have be large movements of immigrants within and into europe for the last half a millenium, and people have been complaining about it for as long, and American groups have been wanting to shut on the next lot since before independence. What's different between europe and america is the amount of room available, both real and perceived, and so tensions are that much higher when you're have coutnries with over three times the population of New York in three-quarters of the land area.
shut up, I need this... will a billion close yer yap?
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