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Winner got three wishes, one was his own political party...

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by RedRalph, Jan 26, 2008.

  1. Merkinball

    Merkinball Deity

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    American's have been wanting to shut on the next lot since before the independence.

    Interesting concept you have going there.
     
  2. DNK

    DNK Member

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    Please explain what it is these immigrants are doing that is so bad? I'm only vaguely aware.

    And that's ridiculous to say America doesn't face immigration problems. There's 1.25 million net immigrants each year coming to America, a number that is increasing annually, most of whom come from non-Western cultures, like China, India, the Philippines, Mexico, Cuba, and Korea. This isn't mostly Europeans, you know. Many of these are illegals, who don't pay proper taxes but still use public services, and those are disproportionately concentrated in southwestern states.

    This is about 1/3 of a percent of our population, which is in line with EU15 statistics as well (not sure if those are intra-EU15 or foreign->EU15, though).

    I'm not seeing the difference here... Different cultures, large amounts of "unwanted" immigration, about equal rates. Why is yours so much worse again?
     
  3. AceChilla

    AceChilla Goedheiligman

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    Well of course 200 years ago it seemed like a very big deal when your Irish daughter married an Italian guy. But all in all the European immigrants in the US came from the same European cultural traditions and had the same cultural foundations and thus had alot more in common then they differed.
     
  4. Merkinball

    Merkinball Deity

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    Do you really think that mattered much to the Italian guy who's daughter was marrying an Irishman or a Pole though? Do you think, that in the eyes of the Italian, that there was much difference between his daughter marrying some European immigrants protestant, or a muslim, or a buddhist?

    Because I sure don't.
     
  5. skadistic

    skadistic Caomhanach

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    You normally have to wait until I come in and point out that illegal immigrants are not the same a legals and that America happily embraces those that come here on the up and up.


    I also like how the euros forget we have Asia on the other side of us and how millions have come from there. There is a reason most big cities have a Chinatown and a little Italy.
     
  6. DNK

    DNK Member

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    That doesn't mean they didn't have it out for each other and that there weren't serious cultural clashes. If the 18th century mindset was excessively more racist than that of todays, what would today be considered minor racial/cultural differences would at that point have been large enough to fight over. Without a real understanding of the historical context, you can't just wave it away as "same cultural traditions"/whatever.

    I mean, the EU apparently still has issues between its own bigoted ethnic groups. Imagine going back a few centuries and then mixing them all together in close proximity in a land where none had any real power...

    Edit: What Skadistic said: there are far more Asian immigrants than European ones now.
     
  7. EnlightenmentHK

    EnlightenmentHK Emperor

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    If the problems are so different, than why does all the rhetoric from every side sound so similar? Why are the problems that the more mainstream leaders or academics would point out almost identical to many of the ones we faced? Lets see, they don't speak the language, don't appear to want to learn the language, have the audacity to think they can import their country and their ways to their own little 'ghettos', poor, filthy, and lazy, only good at committing crime. This characterizes the perception just about every major immigrant group faced throughout history. From the other side, they're institutionally discriminated against and as such develop a resentment and distrust for the dominant cultural group and real or perceived authority figures, their poverty and social isolation leads to higher crime rates, etc.

    All of this looks and sounds much more than superficially similar. And you really seem to be discounting the differences between the 'natives' and the new immigrants. There were huge influxes from just about every corner of Europe. Most of them didn't speak the language. They had drastically different practices and understandings. Most gravitated (either by choice or they were pushed that way) to small, overcrowded, self contained ethnic communities/ghettos with occasionally rivalries between the groups. Ever seen Gangs of New York? That wasn't too far from the truth.

    In Europe, with the exception of Muslim conquest areas and far eastern areas (Tsar's liked to move people around a bit), most of Europe hadn't really dealt with this. Most of Western Europe was whiter than rice until very recently. (like I said, cheap labor in the 50's and 60's.)

    And what Europe is facing isn't substantially different. We got by. You will too.
     
  8. ArneHD

    ArneHD Just a little bit mad

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    Strictly speaking, it means that you will win irregardless of what number you chose (within reason).

    On topic: The EU and Europe in general is in no danger of being overrun, at least for the moment. A better integration policy IS needed, but for reasons of social stability rather than cultural displacement.

    Incidentally, wouldn't the best policy be to prevent people from wanting to come here in the first place?
     
  9. Elrohir

    Elrohir RELATIONAL VALORIZATION

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    This whole discussion is dumb. "We've got worse imigrants than you do!!"
     
  10. West 36

    West 36 Can count up to 4

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    If conditions were better in the countries they are coming from, would they still move?
     
  11. skadistic

    skadistic Caomhanach

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    Many would yes. America gets immigrants from all over the world including rich 1st world countries where things are pretty damn good.
     
  12. Merkinball

    Merkinball Deity

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    Nope......

    (extra long ellipsis for ten char)
     
  13. cubsfan6506

    cubsfan6506 Got u

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    I agree the law is broken any illegal immigrant who commits a crime in our country should go to our prison. Yet we have laws to deal with criminals so lets say your most likely pretty high number is true we can put those five percent of illegal immigrants into prison.


    Alright I'm the one making assumptions.

    Agrred.
     
  14. amadeus

    amadeus Techbrophobe

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    Then all illegals should be imprisoned, because they have committed a crime.
     
  15. plarq

    plarq Crazy forever

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    I really have to seek asylum. A friend of mine who shares my criticism on Chinese authority had already been interrogated by the police because he posted publicly. And I thought I was about to convert to a religion (Not Falun Gong), and it's not even registered!
     
  16. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    Oh please.

    These things are totally incomparable.

    What's the difference? Europeans perhaps didn't have so many non-white people in their countries, but they at least didn't treat them like subhumans, which is what Americans had been doing until the mid 60's. You really don't have anything to be proud of.

    I am not the one who's trying to turn this into America-bashing, I am just trying to point at the fact that America has not been historically any better in assimilating alien cultures or different races. Actually, the US approach is even more "racist" (meaning race-centered) than the European approach.

    Now imagine that these Latinos would be replaced by Muslims from North Africa or the Middle East (or Pakistan). They would demand a Sharia law, they'd sometimes murder a politician who was criticizing them, they'd violently protest in the streets each time anybody said something critical of their faith or, Allah forbid, made an caricature of their Prophet. They'd murder girls who chose to live with American boys and men who stopped being Muslim.

    They'd refuse liberalism, they'd despise democracy, hate your religion and scorn your values of hard work and self-improvement.

    How do you think America would react? And please, be honest with yourself.

    I am not saying that Latin Americans are bad.

    I am saying the exact opposite of that.

    Yeah, I know. I was talking about the past, when the immigrants were coming mostly from Europe.

    Our immigrants are Muslim. As I said hundred times before, Islamic culture is TOTALLY different from ours. Their integration is MUCH more complicated, especially when they're coming in these numbers.
     
  17. EnlightenmentHK

    EnlightenmentHK Emperor

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    Heh...race in Europe pre-WW2. Yep, startling fricken record. Though the ballet you're trying to dance between making Europe seem more enlightened towards minorities, since (as you claim) they didn't treat them as 'subhumans', than a few inches lower describing all Muslims as...well...pretty much subhuman, is quite amusing to watch.
     
  18. Arwon

    Arwon

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    (Don't mention the gypsies)
     
  19. EnlightenmentHK

    EnlightenmentHK Emperor

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    Heh...this one always amazed me actually. Even the most open-minded, pro-immigration, multicultural loving, Ra-ra liberal EUer's I met couldn't stand the gypsies. Granted my personal experiences aren't exactly solid proof, but I got the pretty clear picture that just about every person in Europe hates the Roma. And the Daily Mail (think thats the one. Might be another nutjob british paper) always has such wonderful headlines on them.

    Didn't have enough personal encounters with them myself to form a judgment.
     
  20. jessiecat

    jessiecat Divine Monarch

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    The Daily Mail is the premier wacko nutjob daily newspaper in the U.K.,
    which supported Mussolini right up until the start of WW2. Slightly to
    the left of the National Enquirer but not much. The rest vary from
    right wing to liberal and are fairly sane.;)
     

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