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Winner got three wishes, one was his own political party...

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by RedRalph, Jan 26, 2008.

  1. countrygrl

    countrygrl King

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    i like you mirc. so i will try not to be mean. but it usually doesn't work. i'm a . .. .. .. .. ..

    just because you've never seen it discrimination, doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. bucharest and romania in general is notorious for its treatment of roma people. you guys aren't the worst, but you are still towards the bottom. and of course, i imagine the bucharest i was in was the same bucharest that you are in. this was not even close to the communist period. this was in the summer of 2002. please don't pretend like there isn't a riff between the roma in bucharest and other people there. or that the romanian government treats the roma well there. i understand that it isn't a simple problem. and i understand that in some cases, the roma are there own worst enemy. but in the big poor slummy area in bucharest, there is a lot of wrong that goes on. racism and discrimination ARE prevelant in bucharest.

    don't take this the wrong way. i'm not accusing you of anything.
     
  2. Mirc

    Mirc Not mIRC!!!

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    No, you didn't understand what I mean. :) You said that you've seen something (from some pretty blurry memories, to say the least) and I say that I've seen something else. Only hours before you posted that I was with a ROMA guy in a random pub in Bucharest, and surprise, they let us both in! Oh and in the 3 months I've been with my ROMA ex-girlfriend, we've never been denied access ANYWHERE. Of course, this simply means it is my personal experience versus your personal experience. Thus, until further proof is brought, it HAS to be a tie. :)

    :lol: Sorry, that's just funny.
     
  3. HannibalBarka

    HannibalBarka We are Free

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    Mirc, are you playing dumb here? Saying that there is discrimination againt Roma doen neot mean that IN ALL CASES ALL ROMA ARE DEANIED ACESS TO ANY RESTAURANT IN BUKHAREST.
     
  4. HannibalBarka

    HannibalBarka We are Free

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    The "new" song of anti-immigrants today is "They can't assimilate because they are muslims". This song is as old as immigration itself. Many French people had the same feeling about the religion of immigrants in the 30ies and saw said religion as an unpassable edge for immigrants to assimilate. Only problem is that back than the "heathen" religion was guess what ? Catholicism. Yep, the Pope's Religion. In the 30ies, Italian were called "Christos" and Poles "Calotins" two "pejorative terms relating to Christianity.
    So for those "pretending" that this case is different, you better come with something really new. Immigrants have and will always be seen as a "danger" by a certain number of the natives, there is no solution to that.

    Here is a link to a site discussing immigration in France throughout the last 2 centuries.

    http://www.sunderland.ac.uk/~os0tmc/contemp1/main

    Some interesting parts:


    Here is an extract from La Patrie from 1896 that gives a flavour of early French attitudes to Italian immigrants:
    Ils arrivent telles des sauterelles, du Piémont, de la Lombardie-Vénitie, des Romagnes, de la Napolitaine, voire de la Sicile. Ils sont sales, tristes, loqueteux. Tribus entières immigrant vers le Nord, où les champs ne sont pas dévastés, où on mange, où on boit. Ils s'installent chez les leurs, entre eux, demeurant étrangers au peuple qui les accueille, travaillant à prix réduit, jouant tour à tour de l'accordéon et du couteau. (Quoted in Mestiri: 1990 p.11)


    The other fear was of l'inassimilablité, the concern that these immigrants would not integrate sucessfully into French society. Italian and Polish immigrants, for example, were attacked for their religious devotion by a French working class that was no longer regularly attending Church (mass, confession etc.) and given the derogatory term Christos (mainly the Italians) or calotins (mainly the Polish). Their religion - Catholicism not Islam or Judaism - hampered immigrants' integration into French society.

    This hostility inevitably led at points to violence. The economic downturn that occurred in the late nineteenth century led to a rise in violent xenophobia and attacks on France's immigrants were frequent. Anti-Italian riots, for example, occurred in Marseilles in 1881 and Lyon in 1894. The most notorious attack on immigrants occurred in 1893 when a mob, inflamed by the assassination of President Carnot by an Italian anarchist, set upon Italian immigrants in the town of Aigues-Mortes in southern France killing eight Italians and injuring many more.
     
  5. HannibalBarka

    HannibalBarka We are Free

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    Here is another great read about the history of immigration. Oh and if you happen to visit Paris, go to the Musée de l'Immigration, a great place to realise how "constant" the reaction towards immigrants was towards immigrants in France no matter what was their religion, color or sexe orientations :lol:

    The link

    http://www.logosjournal.com/issue_6.1-2/collet.htm


    Some extraits:
    Between the 1880s and 90s, French workers attacked Belgian miners in the Pas-de-Calais. Italians were pursued by an angry mob in Marseilles in the summer of 1881 who demanded that they shout “Vive la Republique!” During the 1920s, Italians and Poles were seen as “ethnically distinct,” along with Arabs. Culturally different, they were viewed as difficult to assimilate. Italians were said to be a danger to the French people because they spread disease, were over-sexed and morally deviant. Poles in Paris in 1922 were said to be filthy and criminally oriented.

    "when a certain polish immigant was about to offer France a Nobel Price on Physics ;-) "
     
  6. Enkidu Warrior

    Enkidu Warrior Ultramagnetic

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    Great finds HannibalBarka! Interesting reading. I dare say certain people will just ignore them - it's funny how people just repeat the same mistakes over and over again while having absolutely no idea how ridiculous they seem when viewed from a historical perspective.

    French workers attacked Belgians!? Bigotry knows no limits.
     
  7. rmxtrax

    rmxtrax Warlord

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    I'm italian but unfortunately we have stupid people who consider romanians like subhumans
    they still believe that all romanians aren't europeans :(

    It's stupid comparing Europe and USA in immigration question for few reason

    1)All americans are immigrants from other countries, english too. The native people are less than 1% of people. So when i hear about WASP(white,anglosaxons protestans) "immigrants"'s hatred toward other immigrants i start to laugh :lol: .

    Europe case is different. This is our original land. There isn't another Europe. If Europe falls under not whites without western values invasion we will extinguish FOREVER!. If we let mass immigration goes then we will die all. Say goodbye to Euope and their people given that we will live under afro-asiatic Caliphate of Europistan :(

    2) The second big reason is the difference between abdullahs (immigrants from Africa and Middle East) and other kinds of immigrants

    The Abdullahs are our mortal enemies. We've been fighting with them since the millennia. Semites(arab/jews) and their allies mongols and africans are the total opposite of Europe. We've our religion our culture our story our race. Our 2 worlds are incompatible for a one big reason:

    NONE OF US OR THEM WANT TO LOST THEIR DIFFERENCE TO ACCEPT OTHER'S DIFFERENCE


    naturally there are some exceptions but in general this law is immortal...

    Frenchmen's bigotry doesn't know limits ;)
     
  8. Mirc

    Mirc Not mIRC!!!

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    I know what you mean. :) I'm perfectly aware that most Italians don't think like this. :)

    Not at all, you are however completely misunderstanding me. I clearly said I've NEVER seen one denied access on this basis (and that's quite different* to what you understood - wait, correction: what you WANTED to understand - from my post), however I admit that it's more likely for one to be denied rather than for someone of a different social (NOT ethnic) background because it's more likely to see a gypsy begging or living a nomad life, not because they are of Roma ethnicity, that's just silly and I REPEAT I've NEVER seen it happening.

    Apparently, you know better than me, though you haven't been here for one second and I've been here for my whole life. It's one of those situations in which if someone claims "discrimination! racists! homophobes!" everybody simply believes them against some people that are much more experienced in the situation.

    * and the difference is obvious - you answered to my post that was "saying" I've seen some cases in which it hasn't happened, while I clearly said I've seen NO case of it happening. Quite a dirty debating tactic, putting ideas or words in someone's mouth.
     
  9. rmxtrax

    rmxtrax Warlord

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    ten thousands? We will speak when you will have 10 milions in your city;)

    they weren't discriminating you for your race but for your parents dress. Every decent restaurant,you know , refuse to serve people who don't dress in a decent way. Now i don't want offend you but if your parents had dressed like you, your family would have eaten

    Or given that nomads use to steal in the restaurants they believed you was a thief. If i had been in you i would have burnt the restaurant. Given that i can't eat none will eat. Simple?;)

    It's everywhere. For example in Switzterland there were bars who said "No dogs and No italians", Crazy? :crazyeye:
     
  10. countrygrl

    countrygrl King

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    mirc, i will concede your tie. but only because i like you and your helpful. i fully believe you about your g/f and others too. we have spent a lot of time over the years in bucharest. although we haven't been there since 02 now because of my dad working overseas for the past couple years. and most of the places where we go, as a wealthy family, we are treated okay. we are treated like normal people. and we usually stick the nicer parts of town.

    my moms family lives in a nice part of the bad part of bucharest. i can't remember the name of it of hand, but it begins with an "f". it was a place full of crime, drugs, prostitution, and really poor roma people. some of my moms family, like i said, they are okay and sort of integrated into western society. but some of my moms aunts and uncles are not. and they are probably poor and live in there too from what i've been told. i haven't met them ever, but i've been in that area in bucharest and it was pretty disgusting. i certainly have never seen anything like it in america, or london, or paris, or the parts of switzerland, italy, and germany i have been in. the only thing worse was the roma slums my dad took me too in bulgaria. which were just heartbreaking to see. and unimaginable.

    i haven't really began learning about the situation of roma people until i got back from visiting my dads family (who is very well off) in bulgaria two years ago. and i know that the roma are treated badly in romania. at least those that haven't integrated. and it seems to me that with healthcare, public transportation, access to jobs, access to basic services, that the roma in bucharest and other parts of romania are neglected, and that discrimination upon them is prevelant.

    so back to my story. that was one of only a couple incidents i remember. there were a couple instances of people making snide remarks in bucharest that i remember. but so far as actual discrimination goes, that is all that i personally experienced there.

    @rmtrax: my family was dressed very nice. we have really nice things. my mom and dad were definitely dressed for the restaraunt. even my moms aunt and her husband daughter's were dressed pretty well. they had nice clothes, but they had more of a traditional roma flavor, and my moms nieces had there hair very long and in pony tails and stuff. they clearly didn't fit the westernized bill, but they were still dressed good enouh. they are not fully integrated. they still follow some of the traditional roma beliefs. but we did not look like we had walked out of some roma encampment or a squatter community.

    and if they didn't get seated because of this, then it's wrong. it's discrimination. i can understand a dress code for a nice restaurant like that. but that is like kicking out an arab family because the wife is covered in black. nice clothes are nice clothes, regardless of what style they are.
     
  11. EnlightenmentHK

    EnlightenmentHK Emperor

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    Spent a year studying abroad there. Read just about every major paper multiple times. (subsidized for students and all) So definitely not judging Brits or Brit journalism by the Mail alone. They just have the most amusing (and outlandishly stupid) headlines and covers.

    Heh...least as far as I can tell that perception of Italians hasn't really changed. :)

    Mirrc you were clearly challenging her account and the perception of Romanians as discriminatory towards Roma. First you characterized her story as 'hazy, childhood memories'. Challenged her on 'which Bucharest'. Started off the grilling with the 'who, what, where said that!' crap. You got defensive the moment it was even remotely implied that Romania might treat their Roma poorly. Something that is a fairly uncontested fact. And your counterargument was an example of you being allowed into a bar with a Roma buddy, as if that remotely discounts or disproves her story. I'm sure I could find a restaurant that could serve me and my black friends in the 1950's deep south, but I'm also sure I'd find many more restaurants prominently declaring "No Colored's". Just because you personally haven't experienced it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. (and that is essentially what you were trying to say despite your claims otherwise in the quoted portion above).

    The fact is, Romania's reputation on the Roma is beaten only by Bulgaria. And your post is a fine example of why you and probably other Romanians simply wouldn't see it. First you associate her with people screaming "RACIST, HOMOPHOBE" at every turn in a pathetic ad hominem attack to discredit her. You suggest that her experience couldn't possibly be valid since she hasn't been in the city as long as you have, when the fact that you have lived their all your life is one of the reasons you're probably not the best equipped to judge these matters. You clearly have too much of a vested, partisan interest in this. Too much to form a sound, informed, impartial judgment.

    The fact is you all but suggest that discrimination based on a particular style of clothing and appearance may in fact occur, and by implication, may almost be understandable. But in the case of the Roma, they are an ethnic group that to some extent maintains its own unique culture and dress. That 'dress' is the one that appears to suffer discrimination. And by discriminating based on this 'dress', you are de facto discriminating based on ethnicity. The same result occurs, 'No Roma may eat here'. In this particular case, there is no substantive difference. You have simply offered a pretense for bigotry. But it is still very much bigotry.

    That you don't appear to think its bigotry or think its some sort of 'lesser form' of bigotry is rather disturbing. And if you are indicative of other Romanians, probably one of the reasons why it continues largely unchallenged.
     
  12. Mirc

    Mirc Not mIRC!!!

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    To EnlightmentHK:

    Nope, I said blurry memories, not childhood memories. That would have been insulting.

    Yes, asking for details was exactly what I did, because I was totally amazed by the story.

    Sure, of course, how could I ever attempt to contest that.

    Well, I'm sorry, but you're playing semantics again, like so many people when talking about this topic. I NEVER said I found ONE place that served Roma people, I said I've NEVER found ANY place NOT to. Understand now? :)


    No, you are again ignoring the real meaning of my post. How was that ad hominem? I clearly said it is NOT her who does it, since she was, according to her story, a VICTIM, it's the OTHER people who jump to conclusions like yours that are the problem.

    No, I was not answering her. Your argument fails.

    Where exactly did I say anything about appearance? :confused:

    Or maybe I shouldn't have asked that, because now according to your logic I'm getting defensive, maybe I should just accept putting words in my mouth. ;)

    Again, for God's sake, I didn't say anything about appearance.

    What "dress" are you talking about??? :crazyeye: Are you kidding me? I clearly said it's probably more likely to have the access refused for a member of the gypsy SOCIAL group because of the significantly higher crime rate/beggar percentage of the people and that it has nothing to do with ethnicity. NOTHING related to appearance at all.
     
  13. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    What do these places have to do with the colonial past of many European countries?

    Yeah, now you just destroyed me. "S" instead of "Z"! Terrible! :p
     
  14. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    These articles are utterly irrelevant, and if you had an idea of what I've been talking about the last few years, you'd know that.

    My argument is, that it is very hard to assimilate Muslims, because their culture is way too different from our, Western culture. I don't say it is impossible, just very complicated, hard process which often ends with failure. And it really doesn't help to be politically correct and avoid offending their faith - that's just making the assimilation even more complicated.

    It can't be compared to assimilation of Italians or Belgians, that's ridiculous. Compared to Islam, differences between European nations are negligible.
     
  15. Arwon

    Arwon

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    I think you've got the wrong board. This isn't Stormfront so we're not big on anti-asian or anti-Jewish racism here. You're only allowed to rant against the "abdullahs" as you so charmingly call them.
     
  16. rmxtrax

    rmxtrax Warlord

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    Racism?:lol:
    Ok my young australian.

    1) First of all i call them abdullahs because thay use to call themself in this way.
    If i call australians jimmies it isn't a offences do you agree?:)

    For now not to care about their religion, their race or their story. I care about their mentality. A multicultural society works only when the guests have a modern mentality. If you continue to do the same wrong things you did in your original country multicultural society doesn't work.

    The majority of abdullahs want only to continue to do the same things the did in their country. They live in middle age. They have still tribes, clans, polygamy and other primitive things.

    If they continue in this way the europeans will take serious decision to stop this invasion

    2) In genral europeans don't care about other races or other cultures. They have their lands and their lifes. If an european goes in vacancy to Kenya and
    see blacks there for him there aren't problem.

    the problems start when i goes back his country and find there 10 million of arab, 10 millions of turks 10 millions of pakistanis and so on

    We don't hate thier religions or their culture. We hate the mass immigration/invasion. It's logical they will never return their country. So if they continue to come here there will not be an EUROPE.

    We are only the colony of asia and africa. Nothing more :(
     
  17. Arwon

    Arwon

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    I'm sorry but phrases like "semites(arab/jews) and their allies mongols and africans are the total opposite of Europe" speak of a very deep-seated racism.
     
  18. Enkidu Warrior

    Enkidu Warrior Ultramagnetic

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    Please, for the love of god, never ever ever use the word 'we' again.
    :vomit:
     
  19. RedRalph

    RedRalph Deity

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    Yeah... I'm white RMXTRAX, but I have nothing else in common with you
     
  20. jessiecat

    jessiecat Divine Monarch

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    Or the word "European" either. He represents noone in Europe and nothing except his own bitter twisted and juvenile fantasies.:(
     

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