1. Firaxis celebrates the "Asian American and Pacific Islander Heritage Month", and offers a give-away of a Civ6 anthology copy (5 in total)! For all the details, please check the thread here. .
    Dismiss Notice
  2. We have selected the winners of the Old World random draw and competition. For the winning entries, please check this thread.
    Dismiss Notice

Winner got three wishes, one was his own political party...

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by RedRalph, Jan 26, 2008.

  1. rmxtrax

    rmxtrax Warlord

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2008
    Messages:
    108
    Location:
    Italy
    Scuse i was not speaking for myself :p
    I was explaining the point of view of some medieval people.
    For me arabs aren't the opposite. I was speaking about our past relation. We have to blame people living today in the medieval age and tending still to see Western world like "opposite" or viceversa.

    I personally don't consider jews in general as enemy but only some zionists who for example want Israel only for Jews.
    The same thing for whites who want America like "white land"

    That's all :)
     
  2. EnlightenmentHK

    EnlightenmentHK Emperor

    Joined:
    May 28, 2007
    Messages:
    1,479
    Because 'blurry memories' is any less insulting? Either way you've challenged her intellectual capacity to actually remember a fairly significant and repulsive event (one that, most likely, probably would be remembered) as a means of discrediting her story.

    You weren't asking for details, you were demanding she substantiate it further in hopes that you could smack the story down somehow. Serious questions about the facts usually do not come off like hostile inquisitions. You were looking to debunk, not be informed. Seriously, your first response to her was 'Well why should we believe you!'. You were wearing your nationalism and hostility on your sleeve from the word go. And all she said at that point was that 'Roma are often treated like crap (or viewed as scum) in places in Eastern Europe'. And that's about as obvious, true, and uncontestable as it gets. Eastern Europes reputation towards the Roma is notorious.

    Didn't you say this:

    "Only hours before you posted that I was with a ROMA guy in a random pub in Bucharest, and surprise, they let us both in!"


    And I covered your 'never personally seen it' claim in my next paragraph. (The 'just because you haven't personally experienced it' part) You related a specific story as a means of attacking her story when your claim in no way invalidates hers.

    The only conclusion I've jumped to based off this thread is that you are full of it. That you've let your own national pride cloud your judgment and you've used that as an excuse to attack the credibility of a person whose been nothing but understanding and accommodating (much more so than she probably should be) in the face of all the crap you're spewing.

    Yeah, I see that now. You were addressing someone else. Same response applies just as well though. Its not like your tone, attacks or rhetoric changed any just cause you had a new target.


    "however I admit that it's more likely for one to be denied rather than for someone of a different social (NOT ethnic) background because it's more likely to see a gypsy begging or living a nomad life, not because they are of Roma ethnicity"


    So how exactly are you defining 'social background'? And assuming they bath and their clothes aren't ripped, how exactly would someone know that their would be customers are from another 'social background'? Wouldn't the most obvious place to look if you're in the business of discriminating be the clothing, maybe the hair style? Little something that doesn't conform to social norms so the restaurant owner can kick those filthy Roma out before they even sit down?

    Fact is, even if clothing has nothing to do with it (which is unlikely), the point still stands. You're saying 'social background' discrimination may happen and you may even consider it 'understandable'. How is 'social background discrimination' any different? The same result applies, non-conforming groups (in this case we're talking about the Roma...and the Roma...and maybe the Roma) in appearance are excluded. Like I said before, a mere pretense for bigotry. Which, if it does occur and you're acknowledging it may occur, pretty much invalidates most of hostile claims to the innocence of your city and country preceding this.

    This is rich. You've all but confirmed what I've been saying. The dress isn't specifically relevant. I merely threw it up there as the most likely indicator to a restaurant owner that they've got a group they may want to discriminate against. And because Countrygirl made a specific effort to highlight the clothing her discriminated family was wearing. But since you are trying to dismiss the clothing and appearance, let me ask you...how do they identify a gyspsy? Do restaurants have Gypsy detectors set up on the door? Do they have bloodhounds to smell them out. Do they have horns like Borat's jews?

    And what you've just said is the baseline justification for just about every act of discrimination or bigotry the world over. "Can't have them cause they just cause crime/smell up the place/seduce our white women" I've heard that crap a thousand times against a dozen different minorities. Whether you call it social group or not, its still discrimination. Why in the world would you think its any better to discriminate against a particular class rather than an ethnicity?

    And the fact that you all but condone such discrimination here...how is anyone supposed to interpret that as anything other than bigotry? And what the hell distinguishes the 'gypsy social class'? A particular ethnicity that has its own unique culture, dress, appearance and practices. And some people discriminate against those who display that 'unique culture'. How is it a stretch to say that equals discrimination against Roma? Because while not all Roma have maintained their 'gypsy culture', the overwhelming majority of people who do have a 'gypsy culture' in Romania are in fact Roma. There is no fundamental difference.

    And really, there are some disturbing implications if there really is a difference. Because the only way I can read it is that 'We won't discriminate against Roma if they adopt our customs and appearance'. IE: become Romanian. Essentially cultural assimilation. Or, if you want to read it negatively, an unofficial policy of cultural annihilation.

    Seriously, read into what you're actually saying here a bit more.
     
  3. Merkinball

    Merkinball Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2007
    Messages:
    6,980
    Location:
    Western New York
    Jesus that was an awesome post...
     
  4. HannibalBarka

    HannibalBarka We are Free

    Joined:
    May 14, 2003
    Messages:
    3,955
    Location:
    Paris, France
    rmxtrax, you're Italian, right? I think you better go clean the garbage in Napoli instead of writing garbage about Jews, Mongols and Arabs on this forum :)

    HannibalBarka alias Abdullah
     
  5. Mirc

    Mirc Not mIRC!!!

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2005
    Messages:
    15,825
    Location:
    Düsseldorf, ->Germany, E.U.
    :lol: You're pretty hopeless in this argument, sorry, she said PERSONALLY that she did NOT know what happened, and she found out from her aunt (I think, if it was some other relative sorry) much later. She couldn't have possibly remembered what caused it considering according to her story she didn't actually know what caused it and only found out later.

    Exactly, because it was hardly believable.

    See above.

    Nationalism? :lol: You must be kidding me, I hate so many things about this country that please, don't even get me started on this topic.

    And totally false. People keep comparing this so called discrimination with the true discrimination that happened against them from Nazi or Nazi-dominated countries, while in fact they fail to see that in those times the "Jews" were so much more notorious for being bad in almost every sense, and exactly this false notoriety caused all the bad that happened. If you keep saying "it is so because everyone knows it is so", then sorry, I don't think I have too much to discuss with you.



    Exactly, yet I still said it is the situation that I've ALWAYS seen happening. In your twisted opinion ohowever, it seems it would have been better if I just said "I've never seen it" rather than saying "I've never seen it" AND give an example that is so recent.



    National pride? Man are you insane? :crazyeye: I'm leaving this country as soon as possible, probably even in September, don't you think that should tell you something about my national pride? It's just like calling you a communist because you think that people should not be discriminated against based on their ethnicity, which anyway every normal person thinks. It makes just as much sense.



    Not at all, read your own reply again and see why.


    You're probably playing dump, that's exactly THE ONLY WAY to distinguish someone's social group.

    Apparently, trying to say what your bolded part said, just that in a nicer way, is just another small way for you to play semantics.

    Maybe, maybe not. I did not say that.

    That isn't even worth an answer. ;) If you don't agree with this, well, we disagree on so many accounts.

    Of course. You seem unable to understand that a beggar should be treated like a beggar while an honest working person like an honest working person. All the people living in those slums are unemployed (no exception this time). Sorry, but I find "discrimination against unemployed people" completely acceptable, considering the welfare that they already receive. :lol: Thus, it is perfectly understandable to treat different THOSE PEOPLE IN THOSE SLUMS, and NOT AT ALL the people that are distantly related to those people in the slums (the hard-working Roma people, some of which I happen to know personally).

    Read the paragraph above.



    What? She actually said they were dressed nice, and that doesn't really seem to confirm your last phrase, at least IMHO.

    Just how you said above. If a person does not wash itself, smells and has lots of kids that do the same, that person qualifies as a gypsy. If they are of Roma ethnicity, but are not like this, they are just Roma. That is exactly why I asked for details, because that story seems unlikely because of exactly that part. The part that says that they were dressed normally and everything else was normal and acceptable and that they were not permitted to enter because of this reason, or that their ethnicity was any reason at all.

    And saying "we all know that Romanians are discriminating against gypsies, bad, bad Romanians" is better, right? :rolleyes: No, it's actually worse.

    1) They are white, so there is no way the last argument could have ever been used. They are slightly darker than the rest of the Europeans, but definitely white.
    2) The part that you didn't understand is that nobody is saying an ethnic group is doing this, but that what we are desperately trying to say is that ONLY THOSE THAT ARE OUTLAWS OR UNEMPLOYED ARE TREATED SO. Just because so many of them are so, it doesn't mean we're treating them all like outlaws or unemployed.

    But do you realize how bad the United States are, how they are discriminating against bank robbers? See above for more explanation. Just because so many of them are outlaws or unemployed, it doesn't mean they are all treated that way. It may seem so if you want it to seem so, because... guess what? There are so many of those people there. Those that aren't being like this are treated perfectly well. You seem blind to any argument and continue stating your unchangeable ideas.

    I told you above. Gypsy =/= Roma.

    False, they "discriminate" against the outlaws of this culture, not against them. You just seem to repeat the same idiotic statement over and over again.

    No, man, we ask for much less - RESPECT THAT GODDAMN LAW. That's exactly what I'm trying to say. You being amazed at how bad we can be for doing something that is exactly what I'm trying to prove that we aren't doing is not exactly a debate, it's a pointless conversation.
     
  6. Merkinball

    Merkinball Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2007
    Messages:
    6,980
    Location:
    Western New York
    Well.

    That's what I've been munching on the popcorn for.

    Holy crap.
     
  7. EnlightenmentHK

    EnlightenmentHK Emperor

    Joined:
    May 28, 2007
    Messages:
    1,479
    Discrimination by a restaurant owner against Roma in Romania is not believable because...why exactly?

    Discrimination is discrimination whether you're gassing them or kicking them out of restaurants. Now I'm sure the blacks in 1960 Alabama didn't have it as bad as the blacks in 1860, but it was still pretty darned bad. And they had real grievances and more than a right to complain about them.

    Seriously, when does discrimination become 'real'? Segregating them into substandard schools? Oh wait, parts of Eastern Europe already do that. Is this honestly your stance? That you're not really discriminating because you're not as bad as the NAZI's? Should I give you a cookie for that?

    'I've never seen it' would have been better. It displays your skepticism while leaving room for the possibility that there may be something to her story. And its not openly hostile. Saying that and adding your story unnecessarily creates an 'AH-HAH! In your FACE!' moment (at least tries to. Since your single anecdotal story neither proves nor disproves anything, it really falls flat and looks bad) that isn't conducive to civil discussion.

    Or I could look at you instantly snapping into hostile, defensive attack dog mode the second someone even implied something negative about your country.

    So you do support active discrimination?

    You're not even trying to 'code' it now. You are a bigot. Because unless I'm reading this wrong, dressing in standard gypsy dress = beggar = justified in kicking out of restaurants. Its not possible that some...maybe even the majority of people who wear traditional gypsy clothing aren't beggars or thieves? I mean some of them have to be hard working honest people. But its ok for a restaurant owner to exclude all of them because some might beg?

    Blacks might commit more crime, but I can't kick them out of my store unless I actually see one of them stealing a candy bar. Shouldn't the same 'presumption of innocence' apply? Don't exclude them for begging until they actually...you know..beg? Or does that not fly in Romania? That whole equal justice thing just a western fad?

    The state gives you handouts so we can crap on you all we like? Great social policy you guys got. Seriously, STAY IN ROMANIA. I wouldn't want you dirtying up a civilized country.

    Wow. Lets look at this statement (incorporating the others as well). Gypsy = Filthy, smelly beggars and thieves who breed like rabbits and should be discriminated against. Man you're a piece of work.

    This was a statement on bigotry in general (whose justification are always a variation of the same theme and always sound alike) and in particular some of the justifications for oppressing blacks in US history.

    Do Gypsy's announce whether they're outlaws or unemployed when they walk into a restaurant? Are all restaurant owners secretly psychic and can ferret this out for themselves? Are Gypsy's required by law to tatoo the status of their most recent conviction on their foreheads? How do you tell these things?

    Second, you're making a bogus and nonsensical distinction. Discrimination is discrimination. Doesn't matter if you're penalizing the whole ethnic group or simply those who haven't conformed to the standards of mainstream Romanian dress and appearance yet. You're still a bigot for doing so. And this laughable notion that discrimination based on a particular culturally identified appearance (that's adopted only by that particular ethnicity) is somehow justified while 'ethnic' discrimination is not allows you to conveniently avoid any responsibility or guilt for this bigotry. Nice.

    Except, you know...noone in the US assumes someone is a bankrobber the second they walk into the store simply because they dress differently. (Possible exception for those wearing a ski-mask and wielding a gun. Might see some discrimination than)

    You seem to suggest that is the case. And even that it should be the case. Unless of course that person has abandoned their own cultural identification and adopted all the standard Romanian cultural norms. (at least in appearance)

    Roma may not equal gypsy. But Gypsy most certainly equals Roma in most of Eastern Europe. Unless you're telling me a bunch of other ethnicities have taken up the 'traveler' lifestyle? (I know there are some non-ethnically Roma 'gypsy's' elsewhere, but they don't represent a significant portion of the Eastern European 'traveling' population)

    Speaking of repeating idiocy, how exactly do you know they're outlaws again? They got scarlett letters for the felons?

    I highlighted this sentence because I'm still trying to make sense of it.


    I don't have to prove that bigotry and discrimination occurs in Romania. You've already proven it for me. You are a grade A bigot and you've outright advocated for discrimination and bigotry. That its a pervasive and serious problem can be discovered with any amount of reading on the matter. Didn't the EU try to make this the decade of Roma (or traveler, or whatever) inclusion? But I assume the fact that most of them are on the desperate fringes of society is purely because they want it that way. Wouldn't know a hard, honest days work if it slapped them in the face. Wouldn't know a bath if they fell in it. Thieve, beg, and steal not because poverty drives them to it but because they simply like that lifestyle. As I said before, I've heard this crap a thousand times. And its sickening each time.

    I don't know what's worse. Your outright bigotry or the fact that you seem firmly convinced that you're not one. Your naive belief that there is nothing wrong with presuming guilt just by looking at a person and that a certain dress or appearance = beggar/thief. These are all disturbing things. I hope you are not indicative of the rest of Romania because that would be disturbing as hell.
     
  8. holy king

    holy king Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Messages:
    16,323
    Location:
    Vienna, Austria
    you've turned a discussion about the european radical right bloc into one about "gypsies".... :worship: :clap:
     
  9. EnlightenmentHK

    EnlightenmentHK Emperor

    Joined:
    May 28, 2007
    Messages:
    1,479
    Radical right wing parties are primarily about xenophobia and bigotry. This is one particular example of that bigotry. Not too much of a drift.
     
  10. holy king

    holy king Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Messages:
    16,323
    Location:
    Vienna, Austria
    btw:



    thats the head of the austrian right wing party involved...
    signs say: "old ideas for a new vienna!" and "didnt learn nothing in 60 years"
     
  11. countrygrl

    countrygrl King

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2008
    Messages:
    668
    Location:
    University of Pennsylvania
    wow. what the hell.

    now i'm bent out of shape and i'm gonna say things that i'll regret tomorrow. i know it. this is gonna be a mess. i gotta learn how to use the quote tool better.

    Mirc said: Nope, I said blurry memories, not childhood memories. That would have been insulting.

    actually, i would have preferred if you would have said childhood memory instead of blurry memory. it's not a blurry memory. it's clear as day. it's like it happened yesterday. my dad doesn't get bent out of shape, let alone become borderline furious. if you would have called it a childhood memory, that wouldn't have been a problem. because that's what it is. it's a childhood memory. saying that it's blurry, and saying that i saw things that i didn't is horrible and wrong. look, i'm not some deft little girl. i know what i saw. i know what happened, and now i understand why it happened. it happened because we were romani.

    I clearly said it's probably more likely to have the access refused for a member of the gypsy SOCIAL group because of the significantly higher crime rate/beggar percentage of the people and that it has nothing to do with ethnicity. NOTHING related to appearance at all.

    this is just so disgusting. so because some roma are beggars and criminals that is grounds to discriminate based on ethnicity? and gypsy is such pejorative. it's insulting. you should know that.

    You're pretty hopeless in this argument, sorry, she said PERSONALLY that she did NOT know what happened, and she found out from her aunt (I think, if it was some other relative sorry) much later. She couldn't have possibly remembered what caused it considering according to her story she didn't actually know what caused it and only found out later.

    let me make this more clear. i remember the events crystal clear. do you think you forget stuff like that? i did not understand why it happened until later. i was young. do you think i'm supposed to understand why that happened? it wasn't my aunt who explained everything. she lives in bucharest, i live in america and was in dfw area at the time. my MOM told why it happened so that i could UNDERSTAND why it happened. do you understand the difference?

    Of course. You seem unable to understand that a beggar should be treated like a beggar while an honest working person like an honest working person.

    what do you mean by this. a human being should be treated like a human being. a beggar shouldn't automatically be treated like a piece of dirt just because he's a beggar. you don't know his situation, and you don't know what led him to beg. this is the problem facing many roma in eastern europe. people like you see them as nothing. they are just beggars. they are all dirty. roma are refused property, they are put into squatter area's, they are denied basic services. don't you see the hypocricy and how this ends up being a downward spiral? in bucharest the roma represent the poorest and the sickest people in the city, but they have the least access to healthcare. they have the least access to basic utilities. how are they supposed to clean themselves when your government won't give them water because they are squatters or beggars? how are they supposed to get jobs when your government won't give them access to utilities? how are they supposed to get healthcare when your people are discriminating against them because they are dirty? how are the roma that wish to better themselves and escape these vicious cycles supposed to progress? when there are people like you who want them unilaterally treated like beggars and scum because they are dirty? many roma don't get welfare because some nations don't recognize them as citizens. they are seen as aliens. as invaders.

    Sorry, but I find "discrimination against unemployed people" completely acceptable, considering the welfare that they already receive.

    what on earth are you talking about? do you think people should walk around holding signs saying they are employed or not? how on earth do you differentiate between someone who is employed, and someone that is not? and anyhow, if my dad wishes to bring in a normal roma person into a nice restaurant and buy him a nice meal. he should be able to do it. if he wants to bring my middle class romani aunt and her family into a nice restaurant, whether she is employed or not, it shouldn't matter.

    If a person does not wash itself, smells and has lots of kids that do the same, that person qualifies as a gypsy.

    you know the word gypsy is a dirty word. it's like the n-word here. so why the hell would you say it.

    Just how you said above. If a person does not wash itself, smells and has lots of kids that do the same, that person qualifies as a gypsy. If they are of Roma ethnicity, but are not like this, they are just Roma.

    i got news for you and your bigoted thoughts. whether they are poor, dirty, and living in a slum, or like my family, wealthy, in america, and well dressed, they are still roma. the blood that runs through my veins is exactly the same as my relatives who live in the bucharest slum. what vitriolic comments.

    They are white, so there is no way the last argument could have ever been used. They are slightly darker than the rest of the Europeans, but definitely white.

    i'm sorry. i am NOT white. not at all. we are not european. we do not look european at all. our ancestors are from INDIA. i look indian, but not quite. thanks for telling me about what i am.

    But do you realize how bad the United States are, how they are discriminating against bank robbers? See above for more explanation. Just because so many of them are outlaws or unemployed, it doesn't mean they are all treated that way. It may seem so if you want it to seem so, because... guess what? There are so many of those people there. Those that aren't being like this are treated perfectly well. You seem blind to any argument and continue stating your unchangeable ideas.

    ugh. this is disgusting. you are glorifying discriminating practices based upon the dress and wealth a person has. and where they live. that's so wrong. it assumes that everyone who lives in this situation is a thief. that isn't the case. again, how are roma who want to better themselves supposed to better themselves when you have romanian, or other europeans for that matter discriminating against people simply because they are dirty? the burden of proof lies on you. and you won't even give these people the benefit of the doubt. they are scum to you because they look scummy, so you treat them like scum, and you expect them to be treated like scum.
     
  12. EnlightenmentHK

    EnlightenmentHK Emperor

    Joined:
    May 28, 2007
    Messages:
    1,479
    And a much better (and very deserved) smackdown than I delivered. Don't regret a word of it country. Nice post.
     
  13. Whomp

    Whomp Keep Calm and Carry On Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2004
    Messages:
    18,200
    Location:
    Chicago
    Moderator Action: I think some people need to look deeply inside of themselves to realize what they say and do. My hope is this thread will be a reflection of things you've said (permanently btw) someday. It makes my heart sad, to be honest, to hear what I see here so I'm going to close this thread for what I see as a culmination of negatives. If you want to open it then talk to another mod. I won't accept it anymore so it's closed.
     
  14. Whomp

    Whomp Keep Calm and Carry On Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2004
    Messages:
    18,200
    Location:
    Chicago
    Moderator Action: I'm reopening this thread after a few pm's and a review of what's been said. I'll stand by my previous comments. Good luck.
     

Share This Page