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Winners by victory condition

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Game of the Month' started by spiceant, Jan 16, 2006.

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what is your opinion on how GOTM winners are selected?

  1. GOTMs winners should be picked for each different victory condition

    49 vote(s)
    57.6%
  2. The CivIV scoring is perfect for determining GOTM winners

    6 vote(s)
    7.1%
  3. The CivIV scoring isnt perfect for determining GOTM winners

    30 vote(s)
    35.3%
  1. spiceant

    spiceant Warlord

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    To me it seems there is no way you can win a gotm with a diplomatic/cultural(/space) win as these cant be finished before 1500AD (cultural maybe). this automaticly leads to these victory conditions getting low scores because of the late ending dates. Gotm winners are determined by the score of your games which for the above reason seems a bit unfair.

    for that reason i suggest that there should be winners for domination/conquest victorys, cultural victorys, diplomatic victorys and space race victorys.
     
  2. AlanH

    AlanH Mac addict, php monkey Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Check out the Panthoen of Heroes pages.

    There are fastest victory prizes for each victory condition, and when a player wins one of each of all those awards s/he is awarded an Eptathlon. There's not a lot to see for C-IV GOTMs yet, but look at the Civ3 pages to see what will develop.
     
  3. DaviddesJ

    DaviddesJ Deity

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    It's going to be hard to complete an Eptathlon now that there are only 5 victory conditions!
     
  4. Phyacis

    Phyacis Chieftain

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    There's probably a fair number of folks who dont submit to the gotm for this reason. Between non domination wins having a later date and typically much lower end population (magnified by lack of milking potential) a C IV score for a non-dom victory is always going to be over-shadowed by what is perhaps one of the easier victory conditions. Warfare being arguably the weakest element of the AI in the builds to date.
     
  5. llib_rm

    llib_rm Prince

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    I would like to see the GOTMs result rank each victory category (1...n), instead of, or in addition to, ranking all submissions (1....n) combined. I find it much more valuable to see how I rank against others going for the same victory condition than I do in the combined ranking.
     
  6. AlanH

    AlanH Mac addict, php monkey Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Six, actually, incuding the Cow. We've only lost one relative to Civ3 with the two culture options merged. But that makes it easier, surely :hmm: unless you are quibbling over the name, which isn't 'Heptathlon' and therefore doesn't strictly imply seven. However, if you really want to be pedantic we could call it 'Exathlon' :p
     
  7. AlanH

    AlanH Mac addict, php monkey Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    I've already acknowledged that this would be a useful display option, and I'll try to create it as soon as I get some time.
     
  8. llib_rm

    llib_rm Prince

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    Thank You! :)
     
  9. solenoozerec

    solenoozerec Stranger

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    I am not sure what DaviddesJ meant by difficulty, but fewer amount of awards would make it easier to get all of them for guys like DaveMcW or SirPleb (will he come back?). However, it will make it harder for others as more strong people will be competing for the same award.
     
  10. DaviddesJ

    DaviddesJ Deity

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    Yes, I mean you can't complete an Eptathlon ("competition of seven parts") when there are only six possible awards.

    The current cow award is also fairly silly, given the scoring.
     
  11. GeorgeOP

    GeorgeOP RF Bleachers

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    Also, what do you do if someone wins by multiple means? Are they then elgible to win both awards? This is my first time checking into GotM for cIV, but I remember tons of people winning multiple ways in Civ III.
     
  12. Megalou

    Megalou Thez worlds are not enuf

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    Whatever is perfect? Maybe "good" and "bad" would have been better labels than "perfect" and "not perfect." I voted perfect because I think The CivIV scoring has more good consequences than bad.

    Why downplay all prizes except the gold medal?

    I think most people would play domination or conquest even without the score discrepancy. DaviddesJ thinks the cow is silly, which sounds to me like a testimony to "the faster you can get a victory, the better."
     
  13. Gato Loco

    Gato Loco Open to Interpretation

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    There's the fastest victory award. The highest scoring award is strictly a milking award and doesn't have much relevance to the majority of games where the player doesn't milk. This recurring complaint is an artifact of the fact that results are listed by score and not by finish date. Simply sorting the score listings by date and color-coding them by victory condition would go a long way toward eliminating milk envy.
     
  14. spiceant

    spiceant Warlord

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    winners make it to the front page
     
  15. Obormot

    Obormot Old warmonger

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    Strictly speaking a really fast domination game won't be competitive for the gold medal too because you should delay the victory a bit to let your population grow to get a higher score. You can view milking as just one more way to play the game apart from fast domination, conquest, space, etc. I too dislike milking and never played for score in civ3 gotm (even though i manged to win gold once purely by accident :D), so i don't really care about the scoring system (but at least the civ4 one seems to be better then the jason formula). There were about equal number of players going for FF awards and medals in the civ3 gotm and i would say that winning the epthatlon was considered an even greater accomplishment then winning a gold medal or two. So if you don't like milking just play for fast finish awards (i agree that the cow award doesn't make sense with the current scoring system because you can conquer the world later, grow the population slower and still get the same base score in 2050AD).

    I think DaveMcW had a great idea about ranking FF games and milked games equally in the global ranking. De facto FF awards and medals are already ranked equally (or almost equally), so i agree with Dave that this should be officially recognised. BTW speaking about the GPR: i would really like to make the formula to be a bit more kind to people who skip a game or two from time to time. I never took the GPR too seriously before because i saw people like DaveMcW and bradleyfeanor down at the 30th place and below just because they skipped one game. I would say take the latest 12 games and throw away 3 with lowest results (or skipped games) and then use the remaining ones to calculate the result using the old formula. I think that if we make these 2 changes to the GPR it would reflect players' skill pretty accurately :)
     
  16. DaveMcW

    DaveMcW Deity

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    I think it's good that you have to play every GOTM to get a good GPR. Being a consistent GOTM'er should count for something.

    But I repeat my support for giving fastest finishers a perfect GPR score for their game. :)
     
  17. Obormot

    Obormot Old warmonger

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    Maybe, but the system when people can drop from 1st place to 30th after skipping only one game is just too cruel :D
     
  18. DaviddesJ

    DaviddesJ Deity

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    I wonder why. Penalizing people who can't play every month seems more likely to discourage participation (because people lose interest after being penalized, and so they don't play even when they can) than to encourage it.

    Playing every month would still be a big advantage if you get to use your top N scores from a window.
     
  19. Renata

    Renata homicidal jungle cat GOTM Staff

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    I'd be interested to know if it's even possible to get a super-high score from any victory condition other than domination/conquest. It was in unaltered CivIII (via full-game milking, which was in fact the *only* way to get a super-high score), and it was with the Civ III GOTM Jason score (you just had to be good enough to balance competing priorities well; i.e. reach domination very fast with a large and happy population, then keep all of that maximized while getting to the desired victory goal ASAP).

    My instinct says that it's not possible in Civ IV under conditions of a normal game. You still have to reach domination fast to get a high score (like CivIII Jason), but unlike with the Jason score, any delay in actually winning past the first 20-40 turns is actively detrimental. And what other victory condition can actually be accomplished, under conditions of maximum population growth, within 40 turns of a fast domination? I can't think of any, with the *possible* exception of diplomacy, but even that only at high difficulty levels with maps that take longer to reach domination on.

    Can anyone show me that I'm wrong on this? I'm curious about it. But anyway, if I am correct, then I think maybe we should go to a winner-by-victory-condition system, else the winning games will get a bit boringly similar after a while.
     
  20. Aeson

    Aeson orangesoda Retired Moderator

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    A Jason-like scoring system can be developed for CIV. I think that is the way to go, rather than with seperate winners by victory condition.

    For starters, the median of the graph Alan posted in the Civ4 GOTM01 results thread could be used to give an output that could allow later victory types to at least come relatively close. Something like:

    PlayerScore / MedianAtDate * 5k

    Though I think with more data points (at the high end) it would show a somewhat wave form rather than a line.

    Once the SDK is out, some more interesting things should be possible with score.
     

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