Winning strategy (too powerful)

[tatva]

Hello. First of all I want to say Im playing this modmod since 2 months ago, so I dont know so much about it. Anyways, I found what seems to be THE winning strategy.

This is for playing defensive and win by altar or something. You just have to build a network of forts (later citadels) with fort commanders on them. Put them 2 tiles from each other all around your borders, and even inside your territory if you have the time and workers.

The point is that fort commanders are able to shoot at incoming enemies and lesser their hp a lot, sometimes by half. This ability is too powerful imo.

I suggest, that you remove that ability (commanders are strong anyways) or make it less powerful. Seriously, no army is capable of trespassing a network of fort commanders. (Of course you need another type of units to finish the enemies)

They even have no cost, nor in money nor in unhapiness. So this is another factor: make them cost some money so you dont spam them.

-------------------

Well, I want to finish saying that I can confirm what I anticipated in some other post: this is the best modmod I have played until now.

----------------------

edit: Another point is that you can travel within your territory without problems when at war, because being at 2 tiles of each other, forts become nodes where you can stop your movement each turn.

 

[Valkrionn]

In doing that, you give up a LOT of tile yield. That's something to keep in mind.

Could probably set forts to only be buildable outside your territory... Not sure if I'd want to.

 

[The Glorious]

Another point is it isn't really that hard to swarm one fort and then the enemy has a stronghold right in the middle of your territory to stockpile units to take out your other forts and cities.

 

[tatva]

The point is that enemies dont have a chance to capture your forts either: you bombard them before that and they have half life, then you finish with "normal" war metods.

About the disposition, you can use the diagonals of your cities so you dont take the workable tiles, and there are always spaces in-between the cities where you can put forts. You dont need to be perfect, sometimes using 3 tiles distances. If you use body mana, you dont have problems with this.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

The point is that enemies dont have a chance to capture your forts either: you bombard them before that and they have half life, then you finish with "normal" war metods.

Halve the HP of the top 2 units and a stack of 20 or so, and uh... no, that's not really going to help you, the healthy ones will just tear the fort commander apart. Or spend 2 turns walking past him... 6 units will take damage that way, but the rest can do some serious damage to whatever city is behind the forts.

It's pretty effective against barbs and uber-animals, but it won't do much to a serious attack by another empire.

 

[Irenicus_Jon]

In my experience forts are useful against wandering barbarian attacks and a liability against an invasion by another empire. While forts can kill about 3-4 units (if they don't have artillery support), an invasion can usually overpower a fort (without losses if they use artillery support) and then you have a tile where nemies can gather up and heal right in the middle of your borders (I think a fort also gives combat bonuses to units up to three tiles away or something?)

My issue with forts is how some civilizations have fort commanders with 3 ranged attack and 6 melee str while for others this is reversed. A fort commander with only 3 str is just barbarian food :/

 

[Shinzen]

Not to mention that you don't even get that sometimes.

Good luck shooting when an Archmage teleports next to (or past) your fort and drops two twincasted Wraiths with Movement 4. Assuming he's beens stocking up on Death mana (or is D'tesh) your forts are now either dead or bypassed.

Alternatively, summon monsters and send them at the fort every turn. Go ahead, keep shooting, they come back more often than you have full HP after a fight. No loss.

You get the idea. This is not a 100% strategy, especially against magic which you seem to have completely ignored.

Though it might be interesting with a bunch of Citadels of Light for the Malakim.

 

[odalrick]

Seriously, no army is capable of trespassing a network of fort commanders.

They're not supposed to. You spent the time and effort of building a multi-layered defence network, it'd be horrible if the enemy could just walk right past it and ignore it.

 

[Valkrionn]

Yes, like I said, by the time you have something like this set up you've sacrificed a LOT of tile yield (even if not in a city tile, imagine the cities that could have been built where your rows of forts are), have spent a lot of time on it, and even then it's not impervious. I'm not too worried about it.

I think the Malakim, D'tesh, and Kurios are the best at it, for various reasons.....

• Malakim - Citadel of Light. Seriously, grow these. Any time an enemy walks within one tile of it, they will be blasted by a Pillar of Light effect. 10-40% damage. May even effect the whole stack (all of them are moving in range, after all), really need to test that. Been over a year since I put it in.
• D'tesh - Next version they will use Mausoleums rather than Forts... They grow twice as fast and control more territory, but grant less defense.... But you don't need it, with the spells the D'teshi Commander has.
• Kurios - Completely normal forts. Their boon is the Pioneer... They can settle down direction into a Citadel. That is a VERY good thing.

 

[Irenicus_Jon]

D'teshi fort commanders will have spells? Like the Amurites?

That would be interesting.

 

[Valkrionn]

No, D'teshi commanders already do have spells.

Two of them, in fact.

1. Gift Essence
   • Not cast by the Fort Commander, but by units on the same tile as it.
   • Kills the unit, grants xp equivalent to the caster's level to the Commander. This is the only method for the D'teshi Commanders to gain xp other than via combat, as they do not gain it for free like other Commanders.
2. Flay Flesh
   • This one IS cast by the fort commander.
   • Has a range of one tile (AoE spell), deals up to 15% Death damage each cast, has a damage limit of 100... Meaning it can kill.

So... Less defense from the forts, but enough of these commanders and you should be fine. The D'teshi Commander was one of the first Fort Commander UU's, so it's been in for a while. Since the commanders generated the culture, rather than the forts, even.

Edit: Keep in mind though, they are squishy. 2 , +1 Death , +1 Death Affinity. Farm that Death mana.

They also have no ranged attack... They lost that in return for the spell.

 

[Camper Joe]

In my experience, it would seem that forts are somewhat useless to most civilizations. Surely, when you find that beautiful little checkpoint between to mountains, it can serve to protect a whole border of your empire, but that is rather rare. Usually, I find myself building forts only as the Grigori, for the questing.

It is correct that their bombardment is a bit much, but consider heroes. I do not remember the exact value, but they take about 80% less collateral damage- Certainly enough to protect your ~15 str hero until he can mop the floor with that fort commander.

If you're not attacking the fort with a hero, it probably isn't your main invasion force.. Which makes the fort mostly bypassable. So, forts are, in my opinion, entirely balanced and need no changes. The strategy mentioned may help keep the AI out, but you will never outsmart a human player with a line of forts.

Now, I do like the idea of forts costing slight upkeep. Maybe 1 or 2 gold. Of course, Dwarven settlements ought to remain free..

Cheers, Joe.

 

[Endovior]

Hmm...?

Unless you're referring to a change from the next version, D'Tesh Commanders gain no XP from combat, and slow XP over time, not the other way around.

Of course, it's hardly relevant either way, since you just get a Death 1 Binder to spam Skeletons and sacrifice them to buff all your Commanders to max XP.

 

[Valkrionn]

Hmm...?

Unless you're referring to a change from the next version, D'Tesh Commanders gain no XP from combat, and slow XP over time, not the other way around.

Of course, it's hardly relevant either way, since you just get a Death 1 Binder to spam Skeletons and sacrifice them to buff all your Commanders to max XP.

Woops, you're correct. I thought it was the other way around.

Not sure summons work with the Gift Essence spell... If it does, it needs to be fixed. I'll check it out.

 

[tatva]

Ok. Probably I should have put a "?" in the title. Anyways, against the AI, Im currently using lines of forts. They are cheap in work time because with 2 workers you build them in 2 turns (plus 1 for the road). And the commanders do collateral damage to many units, not only 2.

Another thing: Im playing the mechanos and they can convert forts into mobile fort, right? Well, those are not "mobile" at all. They dont move, not a single step. I tried puting some crew on them but nothing. Is that correct?

And a bit off topic, but the ranged attack of archers (not the fort commanders) seems to lower only the attack strenght and not the defense strenght. Is that right? because then ranged attack is useful only for defense.

 

[Valkrionn]

Ok. Probably I should have put a "?" in the title. Anyways, against the AI, Im currently using lines of forts. They are cheap in work time because with 2 workers you build them in 2 turns (plus 1 for the road). And the commanders do collateral damage to many units, not only 2.

Another thing: Im playing the mechanos and they can convert forts into mobile fort, right? Well, those are not "mobile" at all. They dont move, not a single step. I tried puting some crew on them but nothing. Is that correct?

And a bit off topic, but the ranged attack of archers (not the fort commanders) seems to lower only the attack strenght and not the defense strenght. Is that right? because then ranged attack is useful only for defense.

Mobile Forts are very mobile. Read the unit tooltip. Basically, it says "Route Native Railroad".... Which means that it can only move on Railroads. Which require Refined Mana, Iron, and a tech (can't remember the exact tech)... Build those, and you'll be able to move it.

Ranged Attacks reduce overall strength, not just attack strength.

 

[Cão]

Well, my starting strategy right now is to locate my neighbors and then construct forts on what I think (or I want) that will be our border. I also try to secure mana with 2-3 forts.

My enemies rarely declare war on me on the beggining, because my strong borders. Then I can go for a better winning plan.... And when they come I just move a defense force from fort to fort, or to a city, they start to evade the stronghold but then, it seems that they go beserk, and atack anyway, just to die...

The AI knows that they need to spare theirs experienced units?

It would be good with the fort consumes a gold, or unhealthy on nearby squares... Or consumes food... don´t know.

 

[isthmus]

The strategy mentioned may help keep the AI out, but you will never outsmart a human player with a line of forts.

Shame that RifE and most civ4 mods rely on the AI for a game. Even in multi the AI will be there as an opponent unless you can find a lot of people who have the patience to wait for other people to finish their turns. Many people just don't have the time It would be good if RifE worked well in multi but so far I think it's been developed with AI coping in mind...

Now, I do like the idea of forts costing slight upkeep. Maybe 1 or 2 gold. Of course, Dwarven settlements ought to remain free..

...and I think this is the way to solve this. I mean, you have to supply a fort, right? It could cost more depending on the size of the fort (or age of the commander, with an autoaquire promotion that increases maintainance). I actually think that dwarven settlements and related improvements should still have some maintainance, they already give you a fort, plus great tile yields. Would also help to prevent people from spamming them everywhere.
If you're the Khazad (who primarily use them) then you've likely got some money gaining scheme underway so the maintainance of the settlements won't hit you too hard other than slow down the cash hoarding.
For everyone else, this means that there is a cost to switching to RoK just to get the mines, and I think that's appropriate - why should dwarves work for you if they dont get a load of cash?

Well, my starting strategy right now is to locate my neighbors and then construct forts on what I think (or I want) that will be our border. I also try to secure mana with 2-3 forts.

It would be good with the fort consumes a gold, or unhealthy on nearby squares... Or consumes food... don´t know.

I secure mana or resources that really don't deserve a separate city with forts also; I believe that this is what they're for ultimately. Unfortunately this sortof goes against there being a maintainance cost for forts - people tend build them for culture control and you may as well just build a new city if the maintainance cost is high. I think if the commander's ranged attack (or even just ranged cap) is toned down, and if there's a 1-2 gold cost for a citadel then fort spam shouldn't be an issue, and yet they're not nerfed beyond their true function, I think.

 

[Camper Joe]

...and I think this is the way to solve this. I mean, you have to supply a fort, right? It could cost more depending on the size of the fort (or age of the commander, with an autoaquire promotion that increases maintainance). I actually think that dwarven settlements and related improvements should still have some maintainance, they already give you a fort, plus great tile yields. Would also help to prevent people from spamming them everywhere.
If you're the Khazad (who primarily use them) then you've likely got some money gaining scheme underway so the maintainance of the settlements won't hit you too hard other than slow down the cash hoarding.
For everyone else, this means that there is a cost to switching to RoK just to get the mines, and I think that's appropriate - why should dwarves work for you if they dont get a load of cash?

When you put it like that, I would agree. That would give a slight downside to RoK, which is most likely the most overpowered religion in the game currently. It's quite true, dwarves wouldn't quite walk into your empire and set up shop for free.

 

[joemag]

I'm in the middle of a D'Tesh game and summons (specifically skeletons) work with Gift Essence. Also, fort spam is great for One City Challenge (or civs where you might play one city anyways). Currently I think the fort system is great, especially with the Jotnar.

The only downside is that if another civs culture is encroaching on your fort (which you likely put down to claim some resources), there is no way to fight back. Furthermore, when founding a city with the Jotnar by upgrading a Herredcarl, the culture radius shrinks back down.