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[WIP][BNW]Into the Renaissance Deluxe

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Creation & Customization' started by JFD, Jun 15, 2015.

  1. Gyra Solune

    Gyra Solune King

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    Yeah I was about to ask, what effect would it even have on the scenario and how would the player utilize it?
     
  2. JFD

    JFD Kathigitarkh

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    It would just be some extra bonuses for having Jewish minorities in your cities - such as the ability to support Synagogues, which would be the source of a Merchant specialist (which, because of the HRE vote, are rarer in the scenario).
     
  3. Natan35

    Natan35 Mayor of St. Natansburg

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    JFD, what I wanted to say(in English), is that those ideas need different names. I never do things well from the first try.

    Spoiler :
    I'm always the one who completes my own wishes, and I'm also the one that screws it up when other people help me... :sad:

    Didn't mean to offend you, please forgive me if I did. Please include those ideas(since nothing has to be perfect).
    (Also, Uighur, that's exactly the response I wanted)
    (Also, considering the very positive attitude Casimir III had towards Jews, it might be a good idea to include a reference)
     
  4. JFD

    JFD Kathigitarkh

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    You can take my words literally: if you didn't meant to mislead me, then there's no problem, and you don't need to ask forgiveness nor feel like you offended me.

    As to the topic, I've added Judaism - but because it's not intended (the game isn't really designed to support religious pluralism in your own empire, unfortunately) and unlikely to become dominant in the game (and because no civ begins with it), I've only given it a founder and two follower beliefs. To deal with this fact, I've added the Synagogue as a building that can be unlocked at a specific tech, but which can only be constructed if you have at least 3 followers of Judaism in the city (because it's difficult to control, if you lose those three followers, you won't lose the Synagogue).

    I'll add a Jewish Diaspora event to help them out in spreading to Europe and if you, Natan, or anyone else knows of any significant Jewish communities in Europe at the start of the scenario (around 1095), I can add them at the start of the game. Any other ideas for Jews are welcome, but not all of them will necessarily be possible. At least, I can't think of what else I can do other than what I've done by allowing their religion to spread.

    Here is a pikachu of the tech tree then:

    Spoiler :


    And just for comparison's sake, here is the vanilla tech tree for ItR:

    Spoiler :


    Don't mind the tech costs...
     
  5. Kerfuffle

    Kerfuffle King of the Whale Sharks

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    Ooooh really liking the new icons! (Or at least the ones I've never seen before)

    Ah, was thinking 'this is going to play real fast!' :lol:
     
  6. Natan35

    Natan35 Mayor of St. Natansburg

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    Which two follower beliefs?
    ill post my ideas as soon as I get home from school. Also, i finish school this friday, so I might be able to help you with research.
     
  7. janboruta

    janboruta Artistriarch

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    If there will be a Black Death event, there could be a follow-up event - some Jewish followers are removed from Western Europe, and are transferred to Poland and Hungary. Casimir's policy during the black death was tolerant towards Jews, and allowed them to settle in major cities, mostly in the capital. It wasn't as much a protection from western Eruopean persecution, and more of a desire to have their sweet bank money and loans, but it worked.

    Also, Poland's death toll from the black death was kept at a much lower number than in the rest of Europe. Borders were either closed off or quarantined. I don't know if it could be represented in-game anyhow, but that's what happened.
     
  8. Natan35

    Natan35 Mayor of St. Natansburg

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    I'd strongly suggest that Casimir Won't have a state religion. He was known as "king of the Jews", and perhaps... He could have the Shul(from the Khazaria mod) as a UB? Also, though you said Jews won't have an enhancer belief, I'd still suggest having a belief that would make Jews hard to remove, but will also make them spread only via trade routes(that's how Jews arrived to Poland).
     
  9. janboruta

    janboruta Artistriarch

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    That's the dumbest thing I've read all day. And it's still 11 in the morning.
     
  10. Natan35

    Natan35 Mayor of St. Natansburg

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    As in, he should have a majority religion(he gave followers of all religions equal rights).
    Or those two are the same in the scenario, and I'm dumb...
     
  11. Redaxe

    Redaxe Emperor

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    Looking very good :D

    One thing I'll point out for historical continuity is regarding aqueducts. Apparently the Valens Aqueduct which served Constantinople was still functioning in the period of this scenario making it the sole city in Europe that still enjoyed the privilege of public infrastructure. It was actually broken by the Byzantine army as it retreated behind the Theodossian Walls to stop the Avar invaders from climbing over the walls. But wiki says that is was fully repaired by Constantine V after 758 and maintained by later emperors and was still functioning after the city was sacked by the 4th crusade

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valens_Aqueduct

    Maybe you can class that as a World Wonder for Constantinople which gives it the sole advantage of having a functioning Aqueduct but with a hefty maintenance cost.

    I'm not sure if any other Byzantine/Roman cities had functioning aqueducts by that stage. Perhaps other more knowledgeable historians can weigh in :)
    I do know that Virtually every city & Province of the East Roman Empire except the suburbs of Constantinople behind the Theodossian Walls was sacked or plundered by the Avars, Persians and Arabs back in the 6-7th century (which includes Balkans, Macedonia, Thrace, most of Greece, Anatolia, Syria, Palestine and Egypt) so I'm not sure if other cities like Thessaloniki were able to rebuild more complex infrastructure.

    Also if you are adding in BNW trade routes I'd also change the rules for food routes. Large scale transport of food basically ended once Alexandria was lost to the Romans and I'm not sure how much it recovered by the 11th century.

    My suggestion therefore would be to change the Granary to a building which requires wheat for construction (in the same way that a Forge requires Iron). So its no longer a building that every city can build.

    So only cities that have access to wheat can send a food via caravans and cargo ships. Wheat should be carefully placed on the map so it becomes like a strategic resource. This will also stop players from running massive food imports to their capitals to take advantage of certain social policies like Monarchy.
    If there is a need for food buildings my suggestion would be to add hospitals and orphanages which can be purchased by faith. One of the distinguishing differences between classical antiquity society and medieval society is that ancient society had large public funded infrastructure, entertainment and some degree of social welfare (i.e. Romans dolled out grain to the population). By the medieval era the church and private enterprise had largely replaced the State organization so the poor would receive help from the church and guilds and universities replaced Nationally owned workshops and academies etc......
     
  12. Gyra Solune

    Gyra Solune King

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    I think those are pretty intriguing ideas, yeah. Like, immediately at the start of the game massive food surpluses should be a bit tricky to come by, what with a lot of civs involved didn't have much established infrastructure, but by the time of the Renaissance proper there's been a lot of advances in that. Plus it also greater promotes building up greater military power to really bring people to fight muchly over more fertile areas.
     
  13. Redaxe

    Redaxe Emperor

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    Yeah well the running of multiple food ships to a capital for huge short term growth which leads to a runaway snowballing effect should be prevented imo as it really just unbalances the game.

    I might also mention on the subject of aqueducts that there was one other european medieval era aqueduct that was restored in Rome from the original Roman construction
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aqua_Virgo

    Wiki says that Aqua Virgo (one of the old aqueducts of Ancient Rome) was restored by Pope Adrian 1 in the 8th century and later fully repaired in the 1450s.

    Another aqueduct was restored in 1605
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aqua_Traiana
     
  14. janboruta

    janboruta Artistriarch

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    Remember that the scenario will still have to - most likely - feel vanilla-like, in line with the official version of the scenario. Don't get your hopes up in regards to such big revamps of mechanics that are at the very base of the game itself.

    Also, I'm not up to "carefully placing resources" on the map. If wheat would have to be pre-placed, then why not luxuries and strategics? That would turn a dynamic scenario into a very rigid setting with only a handful of ways you could play it. It's not something I want to see happen.

    Also, the scenario is not about basic management, it's about religion, government, warfare and city-state diplomacy. But then it's mostly up to JFD to decide, and up to his time and energy he can dedicate to making all the changes you want.
     
  15. ConstantineVII

    ConstantineVII Chieftain

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    I would love to see either the Hippodrome of Constantinople or the Hagia Sophia without those minarets! That would be the icing on the cake!
     
  16. Uighur_Caesar

    Uighur_Caesar Comandante en Jefe

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    Regarding the Jewish communities, I'm not sure how many Jews Spain had during this period but Jews were very important to Spain's economy along with the Muslims. I know Valencia in the Kingdom of Aragon was a relatively tolerant city and had a relatively large minority of Jews and Muslims. If it's not already included, I think Spain should get some kind of Alhambra Decree event/decision where they get to expel religious minorities. I guess it could convert everyone to Catholicism and you gain Faith or Piety based on the number of people converted. It would have the negative effect that you wouldn't get bonuses from those followers beliefs and you won't be able to build synagogues or mosques anymore since Spain actually made building them illegal until the 20th century (at least the mosques, I'm not 100% sure of the synagogues).

    EDIT:
    Also, Jews were used as scapegoats during the Black Death so maybe when the Black Death is going on you can get some kind of event about that. Maybe one option could be that the Jews leave due to persecution and the other could be that use spend resources to stop the harassment of Jews.
     
  17. Redaxe

    Redaxe Emperor

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    Yeah but remember the Circus Maximus is pretty much the same thing as the Hippodrome
     
  18. ConstantineVII

    ConstantineVII Chieftain

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    There was/is a sizable amount of Jews in the Greek city of Thessalonica. Dating back to the period of Justinian and to modern times, Jews have always been involved in Thessalonica.
     
  19. spendabuck

    spendabuck Chieftain

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    Do you know if you can get permission to use Health & Plague, JFD? We've been talking about implementing some events related to the Black Death, so why not implement an actual Black Death?
     
  20. janboruta

    janboruta Artistriarch

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    Health & Plague system, as it is present in this mod, is not informative enough for my tastes, and countermeasures to plague are too limited. I think the plague would be better handled with E&Ds in the scenario, but if the mod was updated in the meantime, then maybe it would be a cool idea to introduce it.

    But then again, it's a new mechanic, and a new pile of workload for small return. Might be too detracting from the scenario's goals and victory conditions.
     

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