[WIP][BNW]Into the Renaissance Deluxe

I'd strongly suggest that Casimir Won't have a state religion. He was known as "king of the Jews", and perhaps... He could have the Shul(from the Khazaria mod) as a UB? Also, though you said Jews won't have an enhancer belief, I'd still suggest having a belief that would make Jews hard to remove, but will also make them spread only via trade routes(that's how Jews arrived to Poland).

Casimir will need a State Religion, otherwise he would be unfairly advantaged in not having to deal with Piety.

Looking very good :D

One thing I'll point out for historical continuity is regarding aqueducts. Apparently the Valens Aqueduct which served Constantinople was still functioning in the period of this scenario making it the sole city in Europe that still enjoyed the privilege of public infrastructure. It was actually broken by the Byzantine army as it retreated behind the Theodossian Walls to stop the Avar invaders from climbing over the walls. But wiki says that is was fully repaired by Constantine V after 758 and maintained by later emperors and was still functioning after the city was sacked by the 4th crusade

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valens_Aqueduct

Maybe you can class that as a World Wonder for Constantinople which gives it the sole advantage of having a functioning Aqueduct but with a hefty maintenance cost.

I'm not sure if any other Byzantine/Roman cities had functioning aqueducts by that stage. Perhaps other more knowledgeable historians can weigh in :)
I do know that Virtually every city & Province of the East Roman Empire except the suburbs of Constantinople behind the Theodossian Walls was sacked or plundered by the Avars, Persians and Arabs back in the 6-7th century (which includes Balkans, Macedonia, Thrace, most of Greece, Anatolia, Syria, Palestine and Egypt) so I'm not sure if other cities like Thessaloniki were able to rebuild more complex infrastructure.

Also if you are adding in BNW trade routes I'd also change the rules for food routes. Large scale transport of food basically ended once Alexandria was lost to the Romans and I'm not sure how much it recovered by the 11th century.

My suggestion therefore would be to change the Granary to a building which requires wheat for construction (in the same way that a Forge requires Iron). So its no longer a building that every city can build.

So only cities that have access to wheat can send a food via caravans and cargo ships. Wheat should be carefully placed on the map so it becomes like a strategic resource. This will also stop players from running massive food imports to their capitals to take advantage of certain social policies like Monarchy.
If there is a need for food buildings my suggestion would be to add hospitals and orphanages which can be purchased by faith. One of the distinguishing differences between classical antiquity society and medieval society is that ancient society had large public funded infrastructure, entertainment and some degree of social welfare (i.e. Romans dolled out grain to the population). By the medieval era the church and private enterprise had largely replaced the State organization so the poor would receive help from the church and guilds and universities replaced Nationally owned workshops and academies etc......

Sure, there were Aqueducts still in use, but the majority of them had become obsolete and/or damaged beyond repair (and IIRC the knowledge of how to construct Aqueducts was lost in the Dark Ages, but maybe that sounds a bit fanciful). Bathhouses accomplish the same goal, now, and, at least, fill out the Medicine tech.

I actually really love the idea of the Granaries requiring Wheat. Not so much the pre-placed Wheat though :p. I'll have to ponder. If I were to add that functionality to Granaries, I could certainly pre-place the Wheat myself. Conversely, perhaps moving production could require Stone. That said, you shouldn't heed the vanilla policy trees. They were certainly have to be replaced. Further that said, it is a big change, and as Jan points could, could become too much of a distraction from the goals of the scenario.

Yeah but remember the Circus Maximus is pretty much the same thing as the Hippodrome

I opted to replace the Circus Maximus as the Happiness NW with the Winter Palace, because obviously building the Circus Maximus as a medieval state is rude. So it does free up the icon. That said, the Hippodrome was built way before the scenario begins and thus would have to be pre-placed - and Byzantium already starts wtih Hagia Sophia and the Parthenon (maybe Halicarnassus, too, can't remember).

There was/is a sizable amount of Jews in the Greek city of Thessalonica. Dating back to the period of Justinian and to modern times, Jews have always been involved in Thessalonica.

Excellent. I'll throw some Jews into Thessalonica and Spain at the beginning of the scenario. Thanks.

Do you know if you can get permission to use Health & Plague, JFD? We've been talking about implementing some events related to the Black Death, so why not implement an actual Black Death?

I considered using H&P, but I opted not too. It would convolute the scenario too much, I feel, and I really would rather the mod only contain my stuff - with which I'm more familiar and in a better position to bugfix and adapt. I'd personally like to develop my own Health mod, if it were not for that it had already been done and I've already go far more interesting things to develop. That said, the Black Death shall certainly be an event.
 
I considered using H&P, but I opted not too. It would convolute the scenario too much, I feel, and I really would rather the mod only contain my stuff - with which I'm more familiar and in a better position to bugfix and adapt. I'd personally like to develop my own Health mod, if it were not for that it had already been done and I've already go far more interesting things to develop. That said, the Black Death shall certainly be an event.

It has to be a quite massive event, the Plague of 1300s, with severe consequences for the whole world of the map. Not sure how it should be implemented, though. Personally, I think the Black Death is one of the most fascinating events of the European history and some depraved part of my mind just loves historical pandemics :mischief:, and it contributed majorly on the spark of the Renaissance.

That been said, what are the years the scenario happens in?
 
It has to be a quite massive event, the Plague of 1300s, with severe consequences for the whole world of the map. Not sure how it should be implemented, though. Personally, I think the Black Death is one of the most fascinating events of the European history and some depraved part of my mind just loves historical pandemics :mischief:, and it contributed majorly on the spark of the Renaissance.

That been said, what are the years the scenario happens in?

*This is the Gameplay Police. Come to arrest you* Well, I dunno, because a massive plague might not actually be as fun as it is flavourful.

Begins in 1095, ends mid-1500s/1600s I think.
 
Hmmm... Jewish communities?
I'd suggest putting some Jews in Toledo, as Jews immigrated to it about ten years before 1095, and its population was a mix of three religions(Spain can into being perfect).
 
*This is the Gameplay Police. Come to arrest you* Well, I dunno, because a massive plague might not actually be as fun as it is flavourful.

Begins in 1095, ends mid-1500s/1600s I think.

Well since I am a History Geek and rarely ever studied the Medieval Ages and the Reniassance perhaps you can provide some descriptions of key historical moments? the only ones I remember are maybe the Mongol Invasion of the Kievan Rus' and its assimalation in to Muscovy, Conquest of the Balkans by the Ottomans, and Wallachia failing at everything :lol:
 
I have a question; are the regular victory conditions, like sending Caravels to the 'New World' & becoming Holy Roman Emperor, still in the game? I'd like to focus on the latter for now. If it is implemented, does it use the mechanics of the World Congress in BNW (though obviously edited to be more medieval/Renaissance themed)? And is it still to where anyone can be HRE? Because if it's possible (which I don't know if it is), it would be good to make it to where only Catholic civs can become HRE; I for one don't like seeing Saladin or Genghis Khan getting crowned Holy Roman Emperor by the Pope :p .
 
There are only two victory conditions, just like before: Time and Domination. Sending Caravels and becoming HRE award score, still. Making the HRE like the WC will, perhaps, be possible, but I dunno how far I can get in making it both more medieval and more... accurate...

What may be the best balance between historicity and gameplay (and what's doable) is having the HRE remain as it is - just a means of gaining extra score - but being voted for being based upon having the highest piety, and being restricted to Catholics. Then equivalent votes for Caliph and the Ecumenical Patriarch could be done between Islamic civs/city-states and Orthdoxy civs/city-states.

Oh yeah, and, Natan, Casimir isn't actually the leader in this scenario.
 
What may be the best balance between historicity and gameplay (and what's doable) is having the HRE remain as it is - just a means of gaining extra score - but being voted for being based upon having the highest piety

Flavour police here, 500 gpt fine. HRE elections were anything but about piety. Please don't link it to Piety. With linking HRE elections to Piety score, the entirety of the HRE city states could be deleted as they'd serve no purpose. In in favour of restricting it to Catholics though, if it's possible.

If anything, Piety-based election could be to elect the Pope. But there is already a Papal State civ, so that'd be awkward, unless a new Pope's name would be randomly generated upon election. But I like the idea of Piety-based election of the Caliph and the Patriarch - makes much, much more sense than the Emperor.
 
I'd still suggest asking Tomatekh, as he said something about Jews not being monotheistic at the start...
(Also I believe Judaism was founded a bit later. IIRC The ten commandments weren given at 1400 BC, and before Judaism didn't have any real... Rules.)
 
Just curious but how will the Mongol Invasion work? Especially when that empty eastern region is filled up. Do they spawn with a settler or just a massive horde of Keshiks and a Khan or two?
Will they also be locked permanently into war, or will there be chances for diplomacy? (However slim those chances may be :lol:)
 
I actually really love the idea of the Granaries requiring Wheat. Not so much the pre-placed Wheat though :p. I'll have to ponder. If I were to add that functionality to Granaries, I could certainly pre-place the Wheat myself. Conversely, perhaps moving production could require Stone. That said, you shouldn't heed the vanilla policy trees. They were certainly have to be replaced. Further that said, it is a big change, and as Jan points could, could become too much of a distraction from the goals of the scenario.

Yeah it might require some more thinking to work out.

I think the main thing is that food cargo ships need to be less game breaking than they are now and in the medieval world the long distance trade of food was for the most non-existent.
I think requiring wheat for food routes is still an interesting change because until the advent of refrigeration there wasn't really the means to transport significant quantities of food so maybe it puts in place some limitations on food routes.
That said there were probably other food items besides grain that were traded in the middle ages such as salted meat, dried seeds, wine and olive oil.
 
I've always admired the "Into the Renaissance Scenario", and I always wondered why Firaxis didn't update it with new Civ tactics and strategies from Brave New World. Granted I Mod the sh*t out of it by locking it into the Medieval Era and by no settlers allowed, I pre-place each civ's cities with geographic validity. However, I really do hope they add a Crusading state (i.e. Baldwin). The scenario is bent on Pope Urban's call for a Crusade "to bolster the Byzantines, and liberate the Holy Land". Yet, neither Civ in this scenario engages in open conflict with the Muslims other than the Byzantines =/ call it historically accurate I guess. But I really do think the Franks should mobilize a crusading force and travel east to the lands of the east. By simply adding Jerusalem there as a city state - and by the Catholics civs caring only for other Catholic civs, by the time Saladin has taken Jerusalem, the city is now entirely Muslim and entirely out of the care of the Christian forces, with, and again I stress, with the exception of the Byzantines. By adding a Catholic Jerusalem, the civs of the west, with the drive of the Pope's favor, would essentially focus on helping the Crusading States in the Holy Land. So yeah, I just decided to throw in my *twocents*.

This is another issue in the scenario too which just doesn't eventuate. It is is called Into the Renaissance but it is supposed to focus heavily on crusading and religious wars between Christainity and Islam which for the AIs will only ever happen between the Byzantines and Turks.

The AI is just incapable of sending a large army to the Holyland from Western Europe. I'd blame this somewhat on the AI needing open borders from multiple neighbouring civs to move anywhere, 1UPT which prevents efficient movement of AI units through complex terrain (i.e. mountains and cities which surround Italy and the Mediterranean) - after all it is a lot easier to move a 'stack of doom' over a 40 tile distance than a 'carpet', the amount of ocean tiles in the Mediterranean limiting AI units to coastal tiles and probably most frustrating the absolutely terrible AI which just cannot plan or carry out long distance conquest.
 
Oh yeah, and, Natan, Casimir isn't actually the leader in this scenario.

I've just finished school, JFD. it was suppose to be a happy day. trhen came my avarage grade(it was good, but worse then last time) and now this?
(also, how will the Protestant reformation start? did you change it, or its the same as in the original scenario?)
 
Just curious but how will the Mongol Invasion work? Especially when that empty eastern region is filled up. Do they spawn with a settler or just a massive horde of Keshiks and a Khan or two?
Will they also be locked permanently into war, or will there be chances for diplomacy? (However slim those chances may be :lol:)

Same as was in the original, however that was.

(also, how will the Protestant reformation start? did you change it, or its the same as in the original scenario?)

However that was, same as was in the original.

This is another issue in the scenario too which just doesn't eventuate. It is is called Into the Renaissance but it is supposed to focus heavily on crusading and religious wars between Christainity and Islam which for the AIs will only ever happen between the Byzantines and Turks.

The AI is just incapable of sending a large army to the Holyland from Western Europe. I'd blame this somewhat on the AI needing open borders from multiple neighbouring civs to move anywhere, 1UPT which prevents efficient movement of AI units through complex terrain (i.e. mountains and cities which surround Italy and the Mediterranean) - after all it is a lot easier to move a 'stack of doom' over a 40 tile distance than a 'carpet', the amount of ocean tiles in the Mediterranean limiting AI units to coastal tiles and probably most frustrating the absolutely terrible AI which just cannot plan or carry out long distance conquest.

Yeah, it's why I'm hesitant to go to great lengths on this scenario - because I simply can't do anything about the AI. Though perhaps the CP - which the scenario requires for P&P - will give the AI some more intelligence. Hopefully...
 
The two most interesting events of the scenario, unchanged. At least make the mongols have Islam as they state religion, perhaps?
 
At least make the mongols have Islam as they state religion, perhaps?
Please don't.

If anything, add an event that gives them a random religion after a few turns of tengriism or just let them choose on their own.
 
Please don't.

If anything, add an event that gives them a random religion after a few turns of tengriism or just let them choose on their own.

HUH?!
Would you have them converted to orthodoxy? Cause' that's the situation in the original scenario.
 
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