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Without A River (City Yields)

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Gidoza, Mar 14, 2019.

  1. Gidoza

    Gidoza Chieftain

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    I haven't seen this questioned, so I thought I'd challenge the status quo simply because this actually *does* strike me as a balance issue.

    The issue I want to bring up is the 4 starting yields for a city - particularly for the starting city. 3F/1P on a river and 2F/2P on a Hill both seem roughly solid and equal, but 2F/1P/1G on a flat tile is quite the downgrade from either of these options. 1 less food makes quite the difference in the early game for growth (which leads to more production or other yields); or 1 less production lends itself to slower early structures that the Gold - while useful - simply doesn't make up for.

    It seems to me a balance issue that starting cities (if nothing else) can have a rather drastic difference in basic growth or production power merely because of starting near a river or not, entirely at random.

    Suggestion: If not for all cities but at least for the starting city, if settled on a flat tile, always generates 3F/1P. This enables all players to start on equal footing, and as a side-effect may allow less deterministic tendencies to put all cities near rivers not merely because rivers have better long-term bonuses, but because the starting advantage exists as well.
     
    Bromar1 likes this.
  2. doublex55

    doublex55 Chieftain

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    What is the reasoning behind non-freshwater cities starting with less yields? I get realistically they should be worse, but this is a imo massive balance issue. Not getting to build baths or have better farms is enough punishment. If we were gonna actually balance rivers I would would say the city should start with less yields, not more.
     
  3. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    I actually think the well is overall a better building that the watermill, which is bad for rivers.

    Not that I disagree with your overall argument.
     
    phantomaxl1207 and Omen of Peace like this.
  4. doublex55

    doublex55 Chieftain

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    I just don’t see why the difference has to be so massive between fresh water and non-freshwater. The offender is really baths even more so than starting yields.

    Baths gives early culture, which we all know is the best yield, PLUS scaling 10% culture during golden age, PLUS extra gold and culture to upcoming culture buildings. Oh and if you are tradition have some more cul— wait you didn’t restart because your capital isn’t next to fresh water? Never mind I’ll take that back.
     
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  5. Bromar1

    Bromar1 Chieftain

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    Such a powerful building being tied to an already superior terrain feature is the biggest imbalance in this game. A non-river start is a 100% restart for me.

    However, Gazebo insists on this arbitrary distinction and refuses to change it, good luck changing his mind
     
  6. Kim Dong Un

    Kim Dong Un Chieftain Supporter

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    There are situations where I have a seemingly nice spot to settle in terms of appearance, defense, luxuries, etc., but I instead choose to settle on the nearby river/hill/coast, simply for the better production and/or better perks that come with fresh water, harbors, etc..

    I can't remember the last time I settled an inland city on flat land (without fresh water). Speaking on the matter, one feature I've always been wanting in VP in the ability to build the lighthouse line in cities that are a single tile away from the coast. This is actually a mod on Whoward's Picknmix site, but sadly it's not functioning with VP. I think, if implemented, it would spice things up a bit.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
    Omen of Peace likes this.
  7. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    The overwhelming majority of major/influential settlements in human history occurred on bodies of fresh water.

    G
     
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  8. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    You can build baths on lakes or oasis too BTW
     
  9. azum4roll

    azum4roll Chieftain

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    Yeah, but they're not that common unless you're playing in Communitas.
     
  10. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Warlord

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    But can you at least change the Tradition policy that gives bonuses to Baths to a bonus to Amphitheatres?
     
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  11. doublex55

    doublex55 Chieftain

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    Yes that’s why I’ve been referring to fresh water instead of river.

    Or make baths buildable once you have an aqueduct. Or palace make makes baths buildable without fresh water. At least let the capital have baths somehow. It’s too big of a difference when the tradition capital loses that 10% culture during golden ages.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019 at 12:11 AM
  12. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    You have it right, but others don't (and this comes up like every month in the quick question thread but people still get it wrong).
     
  13. doublex55

    doublex55 Chieftain

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    Yes I get that you want there to be a big incentive to found subsequent cities other than capital next to fresh water. But capital usually doesn’t have a choice. You either spawned next to fresh water or you didn’t.

    Aside from the issue of the capital, spawning near fresh water should be incentivized sure, but should it really be 5 culture better in early medieval? Should it really be 10% culture during golden ages better? I think we should consider moving some of baths bonuses somewhere else.

    Note: If you play communitas I’m sure all your cities have baths. I swear there must be over 100 single tile rivers on a standard sized map.
     
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  14. displayer

    displayer Chieftain

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    Settling outside of a river does have its advantages, mostly due to the early production-boosting well. River-cities have to wait until you unlock water-mills.
     
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  15. doublex55

    doublex55 Chieftain

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    Early Oasis/Lake cities can be very very strong due to the extra yields + getting well + better farms + still getting baths later.
     
  16. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    There's a reason for these yields. If you settle in the middle of nowhere, you are going to build wells sooner than later. This building gives the player an early power spike through ancient and early classical eras. If you want to make something out of it, you'll produce some units and try to get yourself some puppets or extra territory.
    Gold is usually a terrible yield, except for very early game when you want to support a relatively big army. Food is overall good, except when you need some spare happiness for your warmongering, and the well will give the food you are missing soon, anyways.
     
  17. Moi Magnus

    Moi Magnus Warlord

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    But then, the absurd part is that your starting position doesn't always have freshwater nearby. There is no real reason for your citilisation to settle in this area if there is no freshwater. Or, reversing causality, if you settle a capital somewhere, it necessarily has some freshwater nearby.

    But then, I personnaly don't have a strong opinion on the mater so I'm fine with current statu quo.
     
  18. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    I actually intentionally settle cities off river sometimes. If your strategy doesn't involve baths its fine.

    The suggestion in this thread that I can like is changing the tradition baths bonus to something else, just because non-fresh water tradition is kind of bad (with authority or progress I'm fine without fresh water)
     
    vyyt likes this.
  19. Gidoza

    Gidoza Chieftain

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    I guess I personally don't understand what the deal is with baths and culture at all. Maybe a minimal amount, but it fits better into the happiness and cleanliness dimension than culture. I'd rather not have a building in the game that renders important game-long culture generation based on the effects of a single tile.

    As for rivers and historical civilizations - I get that. I like one of the suggestions above whereby at least for the Capital, the founding tile can be presumed to be on a river, regardless of the tile settled. Getting burned because of Capital starting location due to not having a river option doesn't make any balance sense. For other cities, at least you have an *option* - for the starter, you have none.
     
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  20. Bromar1

    Bromar1 Chieftain

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    This.

    Yeah, the overwhelming majority of settlements were on freshwater because those ancient people made better use of +1:c5food: over +1:c5gold:. But nothing about freshwater makes those civs more "cultured".
    It is essentially a double punishment for not starting next to a river.

    the best thing would be to remove freshwater restrictions and change the name from baths to something not water related (maybe something like "city plaza" or "town square")
     

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