Woman dies in Ireland after being denied an abortion (Coming to a state near you!)

[ace99]

A debate over abortion has flared in Ireland over the case of Savita Halappanavar, a miscarrying woman suffering from blood poisoning who was refused a quick termination of her pregnancy and died in a hospital.

This handout picture received from the Irish Times on November 14, 2012 shows Indian national Savita Halappanavar who died after being refused a termination of her pregnancy at a hospital in Galway.

The 31-year-old's case highlights a bizarre legal trap in which pregnant women facing severe health problems in predominantly Catholic Ireland may find themselves.

It also prompted widespread anger, including protests in Dublin outside Ireland’s parliament, the Dáil Éireann. About 400 people gathered for a candelit vigil for Halappanavar in Cork, in the south of Ireland, the Irish Times reported.

Ireland's constitution officially bans abortion, but a 1992 Supreme Court ruling found it should be legalized for situations when the woman's life is at risk from continuing the pregnancy. Five governments since have refused to pass a law resolving the confusion, leaving Irish hospitals reluctant to terminate pregnancies except in the most obviously life-threatening circumstances.

Opposition politicians appealed Wednesday for Prime Minister Enda Kenny's government to introduce legislation immediately to make the 1992 Supreme Court judgment part of statutory law. Barring any such bill, the only legislation defining the illegality of abortion in Ireland dates to 1861 when the entire island was part of the United Kingdom. That British law, still valid here due to Irish inaction on the matter, states it is a crime to "procure a miscarriage."

Halappanavar, an Indian dentist living in Galway since 2008, was 17 weeks along in her pregnancy when she was admitted to the hospital.

Protests held at #Dail and London's Irish Embassy following death of #Savita Halappanava jrnl.to/SVzHFD
— TheJournal.ie (@thejournal_ie) November 14, 2012

University Hospital Galway in western Ireland declined to say whether doctors believed Halappanavar's blood poisoning could have been reversed had she received an abortion rather than wait for the fetus to die on its own. In a statement it described its own investigation into the death, and a parallel probe by the national government's Health Service Executive, as "standard practice" whenever a pregnant woman dies in a hospital. The Galway coroner also planned a public inquest.

Halappanavar's husband, Praveen, said doctors determined that she was miscarrying within hours of her hospitalization for severe pain on Sunday, Oct. 21. He said that over the next three days doctors refused their requests for a termination of her fetus to combat her own surging pain and fading health.

"Savita was really in agony. She was very upset, but she accepted she was losing the baby," her husband told The Irish Times in a telephone interview from Belgaum, southwest India. "When the consultant came on the ward rounds on Monday morning, Savita asked: 'If they could not save the baby, could they induce to end the pregnancy?' The consultant said: 'As long as there is a fetal heartbeat, we can't do anything.'"

"Again on Tuesday morning ... the consultant said it was the law, that this is a Catholic country. Savita said: "I am neither Irish nor Catholic," but they said there was nothing they could do," Praveen Halappanavar was quoted as saying.

He said his wife vomited repeatedly and collapsed in a restroom that night, but doctors wouldn't terminate the fetus because its heart was still beating.

The fetus died the following day and its remains were surgically removed. Within hours, Praveen Halappanavar said, his wife was placed under sedation in intensive care with systemic blood poisoning and he was never able to speak with her again. By Saturday, her heart, kidneys and liver had stopped working and she was pronounced dead early Sunday, Oct. 28.

In case you haven't heard who #savita is, here's the Irish Times article. Enough's enough. irishtimes.com/newspaper/fron…
— Tara Flynn (@TaraFlynn) November 14, 2012

Praveen Halappanavar said he took his wife's remains back to India for a Hindu funeral and cremation on Nov. 3. News of the circumstances that led to her death emerged Tuesday in Galway after the Indian community canceled the city's annual Diwali festival. Savita had been one of the festival's organizers.

At the vigil in Cork, child psychologist Mary Phelan told The Irish Times that she was furious about what had happened.

"I couldn't find the words to describe how I felt, I was so outraged when I heard what happened to this poor woman," Phelan said. "I feel mortified in front of the world that we have stood by and allowed this happen in our country today. I think we should all be hanging our heads in shame.

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/...case-reignites-abortion-debate-in-ireland?lit


WTH Ireland?

 

[Leonel]

So this is what would happen if the Republicans had their way with abortion.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

This won't matter one iota to those on CFC who oppose abortion...sadly.

 

[caketastydelish]

Personally I'm pro choice, but this type of thing is a strawman's argument on both sides.

pro-life people tell stories of women dying because they had an abortion, and pro choice people tell stories of women dying because they didn't get an abortion.

Both of these stories are exceptions to the norm, and shouldn't be considered in the policymaking. The reason abortion should be legal is because it frankly isn't really murder, unless you go by religious law, which has no place in a democracy.

 

[Joecoolyo]

wait

Ireland's constitution banned abortion?

When did this happen?

 

[emzie]

Personally I'm pro choice, but this type of thing is a strawman's argument on both sides.

How is it a stawman? Anti-choice advocates have pushed for foetal heart beat laws. Well this is the direct result of such a strict interpretation.

 

[caketastydelish]

How is it a stawman? Anti-choice advocates have pushed for foetal heart beat laws. Well this is the direct result of such a strict interpretation.

Because you took out the rest of my post that explains it.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

wait

Ireland's constitution banned abortion?

When did this happen?

I think foever...

 

[Cutlass]

wait

Ireland's constitution banned abortion?

When did this happen?

Pretty much always.

 

[GhostWriter16]

So this is what would happen if the Republicans had their way with abortion.

No it wouldn't. I don't know off the top of my head of ANY Republicans who think abortion should be illegal if a mother's life is in danger. Even CFC's least favorite theocrat Rick Santorum thinks that there should be a mother's life exception. I think there might be a few, and I know American Right to Life (Different group than the National Right to Life, and more hardline) takes the "No exceptions" position, but that's not the mainstream view.

Even the rape exception is extremely popular although less so than the mother's life exception.

According to polls, 96% of Americans think abortion should be legal in this type of situation (Even I am in this category.)

This is sad but it is no reason to legalize abortion on demand. Nor is a woman dying from having an abortion any reason not to allow it. Because frankly the abortion debate has nothing to do with women. The woman's right to bodily autonomy is pretty important and quite frankly a woman can undergo a procedure that is dangerous to herself if she wants.

The question is what exactly are the fetuses rights? If a fetus ought to be legally considered a person, as I believe, than abortion should be illegal in all cases except when the mother's life is in dnager (While it is crude, "Self-defense" should be a valid plea in a situation like this one) if not, than banning abortion is cruel and unfair to women. The question is not what the women's rights are, we mostly agree on that, but what the fetuses rights are and in what situations can the consideration of innocent life trump the right to not have to carry a baby around?

This won't matter one iota to those on CFC who oppose abortion...sadly.

If anyone here is opposed to abortion in all cases than they should think about this case. But for the rest of us, who think that a termination of the pregnancy should have been legal in this case, I see no logical reason to think about this whatsoever. This is obviously not equivalent to abortion on demand.

Personally I'm pro choice, but this type of thing is a strawman's argument on both sides.

pro-life people tell stories of women dying because they had an abortion, and pro choice people tell stories of women dying because they didn't get an abortion.

Both of these stories are exceptions to the norm, and shouldn't be considered in the policymaking. The reason abortion should be legal is because it frankly isn't really murder, unless you go by religious law, which has no place in a democracy.

Stories are a good source of political manipulation, and while I disagree with your conclusion (I also disagree that opposition to abortion has to be religious, there are non-religious people who are pro-life, and even some atheists who are pro-choice but still believe in fetal personhood [I think this is a contradiction, but they exist]) I agree with you that horror stories are an unfair way of determining policy.

If abortion is morally equivalent to murder (I say "Morally equivalent" to discourage the legalists who make arguments to the effect of "The Holocaust wasn't really murder") than it should be outlawed. If, on the other hand, a fetus does not morally possess personhood, than abortion should be allowed. This should be simple. The question is really "Which side are you on?" (I think most people who make the rape exception are inconsistent, they aren't truly picking a side or they are giving the fetus some form of "Lesser personhood" which is irrational to me.) If the mother's life is in danger, then its self-defense and its up to her whether she does or does not wish to exercise this right. At that point personhood is not relevant anymore than it would be relevant if a mentally ******** person started trying to shoot you and he was unaware of what he was doing but the only way to avoid death was to shoot at him. At that point you'd have the right to terminate his life even though he is clearly a person.

 

[emzie]

Because you took out the rest of my post that explains it.

It didn't explain it. It's not a strawman to hold up an example of what happens when you have poorly written laws that ignore rarity because it's rare.* It would be a strawman to say she's dead because of a general "pro-life" stance.

*And it's not so exceedingly rare: the rare part is that it happened in the one western country that would risk her life. She's dead because this happened in Ireland. Anywhere else she'd very likely still be alive.

 

[caketastydelish]

It didn't explain it. It's not a strawman to hold up an example of what happens when you have poorly written laws that ignore rarity because it's rare.* It would be a strawman to say she's dead because of a general "pro-life" stance.

*And it's not so exceedingly rare: the rare part is that it happened in the one western country that would risk her life. She's dead because this happened in Ireland. Anywhere else she'd very likely still be alive.

In that case, you could equally say we should ban abortion because of the rare cases where a woman dies as a result of an abortion operation.

 

[CELTICEMPIRE]

As much as I hate the idea of murdering another person, it would have been necessary to save her life. I'm still pro-life though.

 

[GhostWriter16]

It didn't explain it. It's not a strawman to hold up an example of what happens when you have poorly written laws that ignore rarity because it's rare.* It would be a strawman to say she's dead because of a general "pro-life" stance.

*And it's not so exceedingly rare: the rare part is that it happened in the one western country that would risk her life. She's dead because this happened in Ireland. Anywhere else she'd very likely still be alive.

Yeah, and in America we have slaughtered 40 million infants in the womb since 1973. As much as I think she should have been able to save herself via self-defense in this situation were that her choice, I give Ireland the high ground when compared to us in this issue.

I'd much rather it be illegal in all cases than legal in all cases. The death toll would be far lower.

As much as I hate the idea of murdering another person, it would have been necessary to save her life. I'm still pro-life though.

Is it really murder in this case? I mean, yes an innocent person died but it would have been a form of self-defense. I couldn't call it murder in a life-of-the-mother situation.

 

[classical_hero]

So far 14 women have die from using RU-486 and that is not including those who have died from botched abortion done in clinic. http://downloads.frc.org/EF/EF11G29.pdf That is direct government data, so it is not biases. Considering the lesser use here in Australia we have had a death from that pill also.

 

[useless]

Gonna need a citation dommy, or you're just bsing us with that "FOURTY MILLION" claim.

 

[caketastydelish]

I would imagine it would be pretty easy to find a citation for that, all you'd have to do is look up some pro-life site on the net.

I mean, there are even holocaust denying sites. Whether there's a source for it or not is irrelevant, it's what you really think of the matter.

I just don't see how abortion is murder, simply because there's no avoiding the vast majority of pro-life people use religion as their argument.

 

[useless]

In this thread:

Women dies, Dommy, CELTICEMPIRE and Classical_hero dance on her corpse to further pro-life (except in case of pregnant women) agenda

 

[Phrossack]

In this thread:

Women dies, Dommy, CELTICEMPIRE and Classical_hero dance on her corpse to further pro-life (except in case of pregnant women) agenda

Eh? I didn't read GH's post completely, but he and CELTICEMPIRE both agreed that this was a situation in which abortion was an acceptable option.

 

[GhostWriter16]

Gonna need a citation dommy, or you're just bsing us with that "FOURTY MILLION" claim.

You're right, its 50 million. Sorry guys, considering the amount of human beings that were killed that I missed that first time is close to the number Hitler himself killed in the Holocaust, I should feel bad.

That said, you should feel even worse for condoning it.

We've killed fifty million of our own children. And yet we claim this Irish clinic should feel bad for making this mistake? At least they don't kill people and call it "Doctoring."