Woman dies in Ireland after being denied an abortion (Coming to a state near you!)

[Ziggy Stardust]

Civ king, you really think you can throw such an obvious strawman at me and think you made a point?

No, I take that back. It's not even a strawman. Instead I have to ask: do you read?

 

[civ_king]

Civ king, you really think you can throw such an obvious strawman at me and think you made a point?

No, I take that back. It's not even a strawman. Instead I have to ask: do you read?

I'm currently writing a paper for the legalisation of fifth trimester abortions for my PoliSci class, does that answer your question?

 

[El_Machinae]

Spent any time raising pigs? It seems a pretty effective way to get past guilt in eating them.

I wonder if I'm pro-choice for thematically similar reasons?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I'm currently writing a paper for the legalisation of fifth trimester abortions for my PoliSci class, does that answer your question?

Yes. You don't read, you write.

 

[Farm Boy]

I wonder if I'm pro-choice for thematically similar reasons?

Perhaps. The similarity would only be for the same reasons if you spent time around pregnant mothers and then decided that the larval humans they carry are filthy and disgusting entities that deserve to exist only inasfar as you kill them to eat them. Then you temper the view with reason rather than emotion and decide that even the death of pig should serve a useful and responsible purpose.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Perhaps. The similarity would only be for the same reasons if you spent time around pregnant mothers and then decided that the larval humans they carry are filthy and disgusting entities

Hmm, I get that after they're born.

Rich Hall gave me a great line for the situation when a parent stuffs a phone in your face showing a picture of it's 2 foot blobby Churchill lookalike. The thing to say is: nice phone.

 

[Borachio]

Spent any time raising pigs? It seems a pretty effective way to get past guilt in eating them.

No way! I've been on pig farms a few times. Piglets look a lot, and act a lot, like little pink curly-tailed ugly babies, imo. (I have a vivid imagination, I'll grant you.)

That just makes me feel even more guilt.

Cattle affect me even worse.

 

[Farm Boy]

No way! I've been on pig farms a few times. Piglets look a lot, and act a lot, like little pink curly-tailed ugly babies, imo. (I have a vivid imagination, I'll grant you.)

That just makes me feel even more guilt.

Cattle affect me even worse.

Them big soft eyes looking right into your soul. Are moo going to eat me?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I can almost hear Farm Boy rolling his eyes at us City Boys.

 

[Borachio]

Absolutely. Education and primary health care are the way to go, I agree 100% . But what you get if you make infanticide illegal is not no infanticide, but illegal infanticide.

Yes. You have a point. I realized it shortly after I'd gone to bed last night.

Same thing with any crime really. Just because people will break a law is no reason in itself not to have the law.

 

[Farm Boy]

I can almost hear Farm Boy rolling his eyes at us City Boys.

Nah. I loathe killing things. My wife thinks I'm ridiculous for catching spiders and putting them outside, and I guess it really is kinda silly.

Can't say I feel bad about eating meat though, when done in a responsible and respectful manner at least the whole process has a good point to it.

 

[Borachio]

Them big soft eyes looking right into your soul. Are moo going to eat me?

One of these days, I really am going to stop eating you. I promise.

But I am by upbringing a country boy.

 

[civ_king]

Civ king, you really think you can throw such an obvious strawman at me and think you made a point?

No, I take that back. It's not even a strawman. Instead I have to ask: do you read?

You said

but I'm not that much of a bastard that I support killing a human being who has the same or even a lower level of sentience. It's an emotional, irrational fault in my reasoning.

An embryo quite frequently becomes a person too if it is protected from harm so don't they have worth?

A fetus definitely is less sentient than an adult, but would you support killing a human being who has the same or even a lower level of sentience?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Nice snipping job there partner. What came before "but" and no puns please.

 

[Borachio]

Here it is.

I just happen to be that much of a bastard that I care more about the pleasure of eating a steak, but I'm not that much of a bastard that I support killing a human being who has the same or even a lower level of sentience. It's an emotional, irrational fault in my reasoning.

I can't follow either of you. This is giving me a headache.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I can't follow either of you. This is giving me a headache.

Well, since you didn't attribute embryos being worthless to my sentiments, I'd be happy to explain it to you

Going by sentience, I feel it's wrong to abort a sentient embryo. But it's sentience is less developed than many animals I eat. This is an irrational distinction based on the emotional reason of actual racism of human vs other animals. I should be against killing sentient beings for food as well. But I'm a racist.

Before "but" was not only the complete sentence, but the rest of my post.

But in our society we've always distinguished between non-human animals and humans. We care more for our own race. So within our culture it's common to treat them different. I often admitted that this is an emotional, irrational input in my choice.

But the decider here really is, has the foetus developed the beginnings of what defines us as human beings. And as human beings, and in the culture I live in human beings are valued far more than animals. And I actually do believe that one could make a very good argument that given the alternatives, it should be illegal to kill animals even for food.

Given the entire post, it's impossible to come to the conclusion civ_king did. In fact, I stated almost the opposite, which is why I withdrew the strawman judgement, since a strawman takes a position to it's ridiculous extreme.

 

[Borachio]

Yes. That much I understood.

But then civ_king quoted you:

An embryo quite frequently becomes a person too if it is protected from harm so don't they have worth?

The answer to which I suppose must be yes.

And then

A fetus definitely is less sentient than an adult, but would you support killing a human being who has the same or even a lower level of sentience?

To which the answer must be no.

And, hey presto, I'm not following.

 

[El_Machinae]

Perhaps. The similarity would only be for the same reasons if you spent time around pregnant mothers and then decided that the larval humans they carry are filthy and disgusting entities that deserve to exist only inasfar as you kill them to eat them. Then you temper the view with reason rather than emotion and decide that even the death of pig should serve a useful and responsible purpose.

but I was kidding. I was more thinking of 'adults humans', anyway, but it's funnier that you went straight to fetuses. I wish I'd thought of that.

A fetus definitely is less sentient than an adult, but would you support killing a human being who has the same or even a lower level of sentience?

Depends on whether the person can recover. You've just described brain death, which is a critical period for organ donation.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

It's a completely different situation anyway.

If we have to compare, we will have to place the embryo in the same environment as the patient. If you would ask me, do you support pulling the plug on an embryo that is placed on life-support and will grow into a human, then my answer is a clear: no.

Comparing the other way around becomes silly in the extreme. We need to place the comatose patient who may or may not recover inside the womb of a woman. The question then becomes, do I support forcing this woman to carry this comatose patient against her will? My answer is no, I don't support that.

Instead of coming up with these Gotcha-scenarios, is it too much to ask to judge someone's reasoning on it's own merit? In other words, is it so odd to place the point where I consider it cruel to abort at the point where the fetus gains awareness?

I could turn the situation around. Would a pro-life person support keeping people who are brain dead on life support indefinitely?

Ha!

Gotcha!

 

[classical_hero]

I'm pretty sure the bible forbade the eating of pigs, but maybe not for the right reasons

If you read acts 10 you will see that God gave his blessings over unclean animals and now they are clean, so your argument is invalid.