Women and Civilization : thoughts and discussion

[Disgustipated]

they believed was best for their people

what they believed was best for themselves. I fixed that for you. Only some modern leaders can I really attribute the above quote to, and even then they had to look out for themselves and their own career first and foremost. When Democracy works best, is when looking out for their career involves doing what's best for their people. But it doesn't always work out that way.

or just themselves.

But you did throw that in there, but I'd say that's first on the list for most people. Leaders have an image in their mind what they want their country or Empire to be. It's not always what's best for the people.

 

[Karpius]

It's not always what's best for the people.

And Democracy is only whats best for the majority. Without well codified rights, majority rule can easily lead to oppression of the minority or individual.

But I would agree that leaders would certainly tend to themselves first and foremost.
"I must prevail because only I know best how to lead my people!"

 

[Majapahit]

It really doesn't matter at all as long as they were relevant to their country and not because "omg a female!" The only ones that don't belong IMO are Cleopatra who seems consistently put in for sex appeal (not that it's a problem by itself), and it has happened a bit in previous incarnations to sorta bad taste (Catherine the Great in IV, much better in V) and somewhat more believable (Theodora). France's Catherine doesn't seem to fit, but probably someone more well versed in French history could tell me.

I'm Indonesian, when I saw First Look, my thought was "Really? Gitarja?"
I had to google who Dyah Gitarja first, I found out that she was Tribhuwanattunggadewi (which is a more familiar name to us indonesians). Dyah Gitarja was her birth name, only hardcore historians know it.
She's often mentioned on history books in school, but when it comes to significance or relevance, I have to say her position on the history of Indonesia is not that huge.

So yeah, I think Firaxis decided to add female character intentionally. (Which is just fine, btw)

If I had a say, I'd pick her son King Hayam Wuruk, or Gadjah Mada of Civ 5 (Hayam Wuruk's Prime Minister) or President Soekarno (founding father of modern Indonesia) on CIV 6.

 

[seancolorado]

I'm Indonesian, when I saw First Look, my thought was "Really? Gitarja?"
I had to google who Dyah Gitarja first, I found out that she was Tribhuwanattunggadewi (which is a more familiar name to us indonesians). Dyah Gitarja was her birth name, only hardcore historians know it.
She's often mentioned on history books in school, but when it comes to significance or relevance, I have to say her position on the history of Indonesia is not that huge.

So yeah, I think Firaxis decided to add female character intentionally. (Which is just fine, btw)

If I had a say, I'd pick her son King Hayam Wuruk, or Gadjah Mada of Civ 5 (Hayam Wuruk's Prime Minister) or President Soekarno (founding father of modern Indonesia) on CIV 6.

I am also Indonesian and I also didn't know the name Gitarja, but once I found out it was Tribhuwana I immediately knew who she was (Side note: I agree with the decision to change the name to the easier to pronounce Gitarja for the Western audience).

However, I disagree about her position not being huge. She was a significant figure and they definitely didn't just choose her just because she's female.

For me she is a top 4 pick of Majapahit leaders alongside, in no particular order, Raden Wijaya, Gajah Mada and Hayam Wuruk. But make no mistake: she is significant and more than worth the inclusion.

I agree that for more modern leaders, Soekarno (Sukarno is how they would Westernize it for the game, which is fine) is the only choice.

 

[Liufeng]

I agree that for more modern leaders, Soekarno (Sukarno is how they would Westernize it for the game, which is fine) is the only choice.

I don't think you would be very pleased if they picked Soeharto as the second leader

 

[Morningcalm]

IMHO as a non-Indonesian Gitarja is a great pick, far better than Soekarno, though likely not as fitting a leader as Gajah Mada. Would be nice to see Hayam Wuruk next time too, though how much they allude to the horrifying Bubat incident (largely Mada's fault) will be quite a curiosity.

 

[Futumch]

I'd never really been concerned with the gender ratio of the leaders in Civ. I might sometimes be surprised about the individual choices made, but when I go and do my reading about that particular leader, the choices seem pretty reasonable. I've not come to a point where I think that weaker female leaders are just being added instead of stronger male leaders to satisfy a ratio.

 

[kaspergm]

I've not come to a point where I think that weaker female leaders are just being added instead of stronger male leaders to satisfy a ratio.

It might not be the popular opinion, but I have several times reached that point. Catherine de Medici for France - I mean, really? Gorgo for Sparta? I'm not going to make a call on the Indonesian leader, but as I see it, clearly some of these were chosen alone for the reason that they were women, and I'm not a huge fan of that.

 

[Archon_Wing]

What's wrong with Gorgo?

 

[kaspergm]

What's wrong with Gorgo?

I just feel Leonidas would have been the much more obvious and meaningful pick, particularly given the flavor they've given Sparta.

 

[Liufeng]

What's wrong with Gorgo?

I'm just speaking for mysef, but I have 2 reasons for not liking Gorgo's inclusion. First, the historical information about her is simply too meager to create a Civ leader out of it. You can summarize her biography by : "she advised her father to not accept the ionian cities money for the ionian rebellion", "she married Leonidas" and "she understood how to reveal a coded message". That's it. Second, her in-game inclusion doesn't even focus in any aspect of her biography, only on the fact that she's spartan, and therefore, she must be a warrior.
I feel like they did not make Gorgo, but a female Leonidas.

 

[Scaramanga]

Most of the leaders are personifications of their civilization's traits, the women aren't exceptions.

 

[Gorbles]

Quite frankly, the game could be 90% women leaders and I'd still enjoy it.

Surely, if everyone is fine with men being all over the franchise, the reverse shouldn't be a problem? I mean, it's just a visual representation of a character in a mostly-fictional setting. Unless you always play 100% True Earth with True Starting Location games and play all the way til the timer ends because, like the real world, nobody has truly "won" yet. Then by all means (and I'm very sure such players exist - that's the beauty of Civilisation), feel free to campaign for the option (at least) to have accuracy in your games.

But even then, that's not a reason to not include women, because all these additional leaders are optional. They don't prevent you from setting up a historically-accurate game and playing it through perfectly as per your preferences.

I do find it funny that people are ascribing the increased trend of women leaders to some kind of political agenda. If that was the case, then surely catering to an overwhelming amount of men over the course of the franchise's history is also a political agenda. There's no such thing as an apolitical position here, unless your position is you literally don't care either way.

 

[Archon_Wing]

I'm just speaking for mysef, but I have 2 reasons for not liking Gorgo's inclusion. First, the historical information about her is simply too meager to create a Civ leader out of it. You can summarize her biography by : "she advised her father to not accept the ionian cities money for the ionian rebellion", "she married Leonidas" and "she understood how to reveal a coded message". That's it. Second, her in-game inclusion doesn't even focus in any aspect of her biography, only on the fact that she's spartan, and therefore, she must be a warrior.
I feel like they did not make Gorgo, but a female Leonidas.

But the thing of note I guess is that she was mentioned at all as a woman which just didn't happen much back then. That I think is a bit significant, and Leonidas had not ruled for too long before he died in battle. I mean, I think Leonidas would have been a better choice too, but it's not on the same headscratching tier as some of the others where I read their wikipedia entries and don't know why they are there.

So I guess this Gorgo would be from after Leonidas's death but her son wasn't cool enough to be in Civ.

Anyhow on another topic, I'd also like to say I really hate this Tomyris and Cyrus thing being given this huge focus, beyond it being kin and it especially shows up when I saw Cyrus's personality and agenda completely revolving around Tomyris and it added up with Tomyris's ranting style about constantly being betrayed and crap. I mean she sounds like someone's crazy ex, and I guess her shady ex-boyfriend is a DLC purchase?

 

[kaspergm]

I still sit back with the impression that Gorgo was chosen for the sole reason that she was a woman, in spite of all the other logical bases for selecting a leader seem to point to Leonidas.

Anyway, it's not because I'm against female leaders, I just want them to pick a leader that's been truely influential and not just whoever fits the gender ratio. I think both Victoria and Elizabeth I are perfect choices for England, and I think Tomyris and Scythia is a pretty interesting addition. If they ever add Denmark again, I hope they'll look beyond the viking stereotype and add someone like Margrethe I who is one of our most famous rulers and would make a perfect choice.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Well, take Cleopatra for example. She's a very questionable choice because I don't see why she'd represent Egypt's greatness at all, if anything she is like their fall being the last ruler and it's even put as such in her defeat quote.

I mean OTOH someone like Constantine X may have been the last Byzantine emperor, but he'd be a better fit because he didn't let the Ottomans end their thousnand year empire without a fight.

 

[Guandao]

Well, take Cleopatra for example. She's a very questionable choice because I don't see why she'd represent Egypt's greatness at all, if anything she is like their fall and it's even put as such in her defeat quote.

I think she was chosen over say Hatshepsut, because Firaxis had this specific Agenda in mind, liking Civs with large militaries. Hatshepsut wouldn't fit that Agenda, but Cleopatra can. Then there's the sex appeal.

 

[Archon_Wing]

I think she was chosen over say Hatshepsut, because Firaxis had this specific Agenda in mind, liking Civs with large militaries. Hatshepsut wouldn't fit that Agenda, but Cleopatra can. Then there's the sex appeal.

Well, a agenda for liking "big militaries" is so generic though that you could foist it on almost anyone. It also has extremely little to do with Egypt's abilities in game which could have easily housed a builder agenda. It didn't have to be Egypt not to mention there's so many war based agendas. I'd argue the same for sex appeal. But I guess there's that.

 

[Staler87]

Well, a agenda for liking "big militaries" is so generic though that you could foist it on almost anyone. It also has extremely little to do with Egypt's abilities in game which could have easily housed a builder agenda. It didn't have to be Egypt not to mention there's so many war based agendas. I'd argue the same for sex appeal. But I guess there's that.

Cleopatra is often underestimated, she preserved Egypt's independence for at least a couple decades.

That being said it is quite obvious there is some sort of agenda to put female rulers in the game. Whether it is for marketing reasons or to make sure they aren't labeled as being 'backwards' it obviously exists. I don't really see it as an issue but if I was making the game I would choose leaders based purely on their historical merits to try and create a battle of the best so to speak. Obviously, I'm not making the game so Firaxis can do whatever they want.

 

[Sherlock]

It is fine as it is, I think. As long as it doesn't seem forced or unnatural, I am fine with them having a higher ratio of female rulers than actual history. A bit more than fine, actually, since I enjoy the variety.

Too late.