Women should run the world

[Joij21]

Fear is also an instinct

Yes, that's the whole point I said it was and instinct, an instinct you can override because you aren't a dumber kind of creature.

For the most part people can't override natural presets. Even the desire to override natural presets is mostly an attempt at status (self control is highly valued in all societies) which is itself a natural preset.

If one preset overrides a preset than you CAN override presets.

As for the claim humans mostly can't override presets, explain why suicide is so high among humans and not other animals. The act of killing one's self is a direct contradiction to a natural self preservation instinct.



Note: Just so Birdjaguar doesn't complain about this post, yes it is in fact on topic. We are debating whether or not gender roles are natural presets as implied by Berzerker's OP. I'm claiming natural presets can be overwritten due to us being a superior and more intelligent kind of animal, thus making Berzerker's original implied claim null.

 

[H4run]

Damn did that guy goto jail? You don't do ground and pound IRL pretty messed up

He went to jail. These kinds of incidents are many, unfortunately, it starts from a beauty contest on which is more practical for self-defense his muscle or the other guy investment on training, just like little kids flexing, then it fastly gone wrong down the hill.

 

[Samson]

Barring a global extinction level event, it is unlikely another organism is going to overtake us though.

So long and thanks for all the fish.

According to current theory, we have about half a billion years left of Earth being habitable for ourselves before the Sun starts noticeably starts expanding into its red giant phase.

I think you mean 5 billion years left of Earth being habitable, unless I am missing something.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

So long and thanks for all the fish.

I think you mean 5 billion years left of Earth being habitable, unless I am missing something.

You are missing several somethings.

Approximately 1.1 billion years from now, the sun will be 10 percent brighter than it is today. This increase in luminosity will also mean an increase in heat energy, one which the Earth's atmosphere will absorb. This will trigger a runaway greenhouse effect that is similar to what turned Venus into the terrible hothouse it is today.

In 3.5 billion years, the sun will be 40 percent brighter than it is right now, which will cause the oceans to boil, the ice caps to permanently melt, and all water vapor in the atmosphere to be lost to space. Under these conditions, life as we know it will be unable to survive anywhere on the surface, and planet Earth will be fully transformed into another hot, dry world, just like Venus.

So, in 1.1 billion years, unless we do it to ourselves sooner, Earth will become like Venus.

Fast-forward to 3.5 billion years from now, and there will be no more water vapor in the atmosphere, and no more oceans.

Eventually Earth will revert to a molten state, and I read in a different article that we will also become tidally locked in our orbit (like the Moon - one side permanently sunlit, the other permanently dark).

Then... we're the Sun's lunch. Or breakfast. Or dinner. Any way you look at it, our planet is not going to get out of this alive.

So even if the Sun has all those billions of years left, life on Earth doesn't. The reality of star-death isn't like a Star Trek episode when everything is fine one minute and ka-boom! the next, with the Enterprise safely warping out just ahead of the shock wave (reference: TOS episode "All Our Yesterdays").

 

[Aiken_Drumn]

I wonder, will life evolve fast enough to survive into the Venus-Eeath?

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I wonder, will life evolve fast enough to survive into the Venus-Eeath?

There are extremophiles living in volcanic vents on Earth who would be able to survive for awhile, but eventually Earth will become absolutely dry, so even they would not survive.

There is some good news for life, though. As the Sun expands, it will warm up the outer Solar System. This means that whatever life may exist on the gas giant planets' moons (or in their own atmospheres) will have a better chance to live for awhile.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Only in Civ when i reach Cuirassiers.

Just ignoring that several thousand year period of slavery prior, are we ?

 

[Narz]

Yes, that's the whole point I said it was and instinct, an instinct you can override because you aren't a dumber kind of creature.

I can work w the different feelings and instincts I have and promote one over another but I cannot override anything.

If one preset overrides a preset than you CAN override presets.

A dog can be trained to wait w a snack on its nose, it's not overriding, it's just learning to value one response over another.

As for the claim humans mostly can't override presets, explain why suicide is so high among humans and not other animals. The act of killing one's self is a direct contradiction to a natural self preservation instinct.

If suicide protects your family or you sacrifice your life for your tribe it may make evolutionary sense. It's not all about the individual.

I'm claiming natural presets can be overwritten due to us being a superior and more intelligent kind of animal, thus making Berzerker's original implied claim null.

We do the best w our machinery but I don't agree we are "rising above", simply accentuating a different part of our animal nature.

Not sure we'll ever be a noble as dogs of course. Ironically it's easier to selectively breed other species for prosocial traits than ourselves.

 

[Farm Boy]

Suicide rates seem to maximize in situations where it doesn't seem to be a terribly efficient time to shove off for familial survivors. The highest single demographic rate is men over 85, and a simple analysis might deem it efficient to die when you aren't spry and pretty anymore, but rates spike based on life events. 80 percent happen between the ages of 45-54. It's purposeless that does it. Chronic pain and spousal loss as the big two triggers. People need to be needed, and sometimes the world is a prison. That simple. Shunning and stigma are both extremely effective.

 

[Joij21]

Suicide rates seem to maximize in situations where it doesn't seem to be a terribly efficient time to shove off for familial survivors. The highest single demographic rate is men over 85, and a simple analysis might deem it efficient to die when you aren't spry and pretty anymore, but rates spike based on life events. 80 percent happen between the ages of 45-54. It's purposeless that does it. Chronic pain and spousal loss as the big two triggers. People need to be needed, and sometimes the world is a prison. That simple. Shunning and stigma are both extremely effective.

But life doesn't have a purpose, so why would evolution program us to feel the need to have a purpose? It doesn't make sense why we as Humans would have more of a need for purpose than other animals, especially if one kills oneself due to lack of purpose before reproduction why create a sense of purpose in the first place if purpose increases the risk of preventing reproduction? Thus a creature with an insistence that life must have purpose could more easily off itself if it feels it doesn't have enough purpose, and thus be more likely to go extinct.

Or is this the reason Humanity will go extinct, is this the one critical evolutionary flaw we have achieved since our species is still relatively young? Did the dinosaurs have the same purpose gene as us, and once they found out life was meaningless they all committed mass suicide?

 

[Joij21]

If suicide protects your family or you sacrifice your life for your tribe it may make evolutionary sense. It's not all about the individual.

A lot of people don't commit suicide for those reasons though, sometimes it's because they feel they can't get good grades or aren't popular enough. Many young people kill themselves off before even having kids.

So what would suicide's evolutionary benefit be then? Is it a way to kill ourselves off early so we are not wasting valuable resources for the strong and genetically more capable?

 

[Birdjaguar]

I would suggest that cultural stress is a key factor in suicide. Such stress is uniquely promoted by people. Stress induced ailments are pretty numerous.

 

[Joij21]

I would suggest that cultural stress is a key factor in suicide. Such stress is uniquely promoted by people. Stress induced ailments are pretty numerous.

Well if humans are nothing more than preprogrammed evolutionary machines then even culture is a product of evolution itself. Culture therefore serves a pragmatic evolutionary purpose even if one disagrees with the fundamental morality of said culture.

 

[Zardnaar]

Suicide I suppose could be argued that it's thinning out the weak.

Culturally we were raised stuff upper lip and it's the cowards way out.

Or in the long run evolution may decide that self aware apes are not a good idea. If we wipe ourselves out we're an evolutionary failure.

 

[Farm Boy]

I would suggest that cultural stress is a key factor in suicide. Such stress is uniquely promoted by people. Stress induced ailments are pretty numerous.

Neither chronic pain nor spousal loss are cultural stress. They're human condition. As is getting smashed by the world, it's going to eat you. It just is. Though having a close family member or friend that has led by example is also highly effective at recommending the behavior.<shrugs> I don't know why we need purpose. Yet purpose we need.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Well if humans are nothing more than preprogrammed evolutionary machines then even culture is a product of evolution itself. Culture therefore serves a pragmatic evolutionary purpose even if one disagrees with the fundamental morality of said culture.

Is there any evidence for this?

Neither chronic pain nor spousal loss are cultural stress. They're human condition. As is getting smashed by the world, it's going to eat you. It just is. Though having a close family member or friend that has led by example is also highly effective at recommending the behavior.<shrugs> I don't know why we need purpose. Yet purpose we need.

Maybe. Both of those can produce huge stress and cortisol production. I see marriage as an important cultural tradition that is tied to who we are as humans and our need for bonding. Certainly suicide is closely related to an individual's personal situation. I just see the cultural stress as an important factor in moving people towards that decision.

 

[Farm Boy]

You won't be able to untangle human culture from the fundamental human condition. The condition shapes it. All of it.

 

[Narz]

A lot of people don't commit suicide for those reasons though, sometimes it's because they feel they can't get good grades or aren't popular enough. Many young people kill themselves off before even having kids.

So what would suicide's evolutionary benefit be then? Is it a way to kill ourselves off early so we are not wasting valuable resources for the strong and genetically more capable?

I'm sure there have been many books written on this. Unfortunately whenever I've tried to talk about suicide on this forum I get my threads closed altho I'm sure such threads will help more people than endless discussion about politics or media.

 

[Narz]

Is there any evidence for this?

You could read The Selfish Gene.

You have a different theory?

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I'm sure there have been many books written on this. Unfortunately whenever I've tried to talk about suicide on this forum I get my threads closed altho I'm sure such threads will help more people than endless discussion about politics or media.

Once upon a time there was a social group for that, in the pre-XenForo days.