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Wonder balance and new wonders - post 1.5

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall: Europe' started by AbsintheRed, Apr 24, 2017.

  1. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    Well, the title says it all.
    Collecting ideas for new wonders/effects, with the goal also being a better balance.
    In my opinion many of the current wonders are way too powerful.
    So I plan to do a bigger overhaul of the wonder effects soon. This won't happen for 1.5 though.

    Also there is room for more wonders, especially for wonders associated with Orthodoxy.
    On the other hand, I do not want to add boring wonders just for the sake of having them.
    It should be thematically/historically fitting, and it's effect/bonus either fun, or significant for gameplay.

    I already have 5-6 wonders which I plan to add, but we can have much more with careful balancing between religions and civs.
    As a quick example:
    Boyana Monastery (Orthodoxy): Doubles the faith points from Great Theologians. Or faith points are accumulated with a +50% modifier from everything (buildings, wonders, great prophets).
    Aimed at Bulgaria. The wonder is Bulgarian in the first place, and the effect is great for their UHV. Cool effect for everyone else too.
     
  2. cmakk1012

    cmakk1012 Chieftain

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    Which nations, religions, etc. could be seen as needing more wonders, out of curiosity? I'd like to contribute to this thread but am not sure where to start
     
  3. gilgames

    gilgames Priest-King

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    I just cant find my post, i made suggestion for two orthodox wonder. Only from gameplay side:
    1, +xx% military production in all city (probably +10 / +15 even 20) could be good for all appropriate civ to counter the muslim IUS (infinite unit spawn)
    2, +1:health: in all cities which is also helps them in many ways. (maybe less for bulgaria)

    Imo both of them is very needed for every orthodox civ.
    ps: i had some historical details for them, just cant find that post.
     
  4. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    Nothing is set into stone, you can start anywhere.
    All wonders can be a potentially good candidate, discussions here will show if it's a good fit.

    Wonders associated with civs without any wonders, or with religions which have fairly few probably have a better chance.
    But a cool and useful effect for gameplay is more important than that.
     
    cmakk1012 likes this.
  5. Publicola

    Publicola Chieftain

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    I made a mega-list of new wonder proposals for the Dawn of Civilization mod. Any of the European medieval or Renaissance wonders would probably suit, if they aren't in this mod already. Here's the relevant ones:


    Mont Saint-Michel
    • Primary Effect: whenever you construct a monastery, that city receives free Walls.
    • Other Effects: if city already has walls, it receives half the :hammers: production cost of a Castle.
    • City More Likely To Produce: Great Prophet
    • Double Production Speed With: Stone
    • Other Requirements: Catholicism must be present. City must be on a coast.
    • Obsoletes With:
    • Alternate Primary Effect: monasteries provide +25% defense
    • Description:
    • Reasoning: Represents the famously fortified island-monastery on the northern French coast that withstood multiple sieges from both English and French kings over the course of its thousand-year history.

    Carcassonne
    • Primary Effect: walls produce +2 :culture: culture in all cities
    • Other Effects:
    • City More Likely To Produce: Great General
    • Double Production Speed With: Stone
    • Other Requirements: requires Walls; Catholicism must be present
    • Obsoletes With:
    • Alternate Primary Effect: villages and towns provide +25% defense
    • Description:
    • Reasoning:

    Alamut

    • Primary Effect: +10 experience for :espionage: spies built in this city
    • Other Effects:
    • City More Likely To Produce: Great Spy
    • Double Production Speed With: Stone
    • Other Requirements: Islam must be present
    • Obsoletes With: Gunpowder
    • Alternate Primary Effect: Spies built in city are automatically promoted with "Loyalty" (hides nationality), "Deception I" (less chance of getting caught), and "Alchemist I" (improved odds for poisoning/assassination).
    • Description:
    • Reasoning: Represents the mountain fortress of the Shi'a sect called 'Assassins'. Should obsolete fairly quickly, to provide a short-term but major boost to espionage

    Monte Cassino
    • Primary Effect: double :hammers: production for all monasteries of your state religion.
    • Other Effects:
    • City More Likely To Produce: Great Prophet
    • Double Production Speed With: Marble
    • Other Requirements: Catholicism must be present
    • Obsoletes With:
    • Alternate Primary Effect: all civs receive double production for monasteries of your state religion.
    • Description:
    • Reasoning: Represents the massive impact of both the monastery built and the Rule established by St. Benedict of Nursia, in spreading monastic communities all over Europe. This should be a pretty cheap wonder to build, maybe 2x or 3x the cost of a normal monastery, to encourage its construction early on.

    Saint Sophia Cathedral and/or Kiev Pechersk Lavra
    • Primary Effect: temples or monasteries count toward the requirement for cathedrals
    • Other Effects:
    • City More Likely To Produce: Great Prophet
    • Double Production Speed With: Stone
    • Other Requirements: Orthodoxy must be present
    • Obsoletes With:
    • Alternate Primary Effect:
    • Description:
    • Reasoning:

    Krak des Chevaliers
    • Primary Effect: extra defense in cities where you have less than 50% of :culture: culture
    • Other Effects:
    • City More Likely To Produce: Great General
    • Double Production Speed With: Stone
    • Other Requirements: Catholicism must be present
    • Obsoletes With:
    • Alternate Primary Effect: when your last unit in this city is defeated, it survives with much reduced health and will be immune to further attack for the following turn. This immunity will only apply once every five turns.
    • Description:
    • Reasoning: Represents the impressive fortification built by Crusaders in unfriendly territory. An additional effect might extend the extra defense to cities in revolt. The alternate effect represents the Krak's status as the last of the holdouts after the rest of the Crusader States fell

    Santa Maria del Fiore or Il Duomo
    • Primary Effect: city produces +100% :gp: Great Person points
    • Other Effects:
    • City More Likely To Produce: Great Prophet or Great Engineer or Great Artist (?)
    • Double Production Speed With: Stone
    • Other Requirements: Catholicism must be present
    • Obsoletes With:
    • Alternate Primary Effect (1): receives a free random Great Person
    • Alternate Primary Effect (2): city receives +1 free engineer specialist, +1 priest specialist, +1 artist specialist, +1 merchant specialist
    • Description:
    • Reasoning: Represents the full flowering of Florentine Renaissance architecture. The first alternate reflects an earlier version of Leaning Tower; both it and the second alternate effects represents the sheer breadth of talent and specializations in the Italian Renaissance.

    Thomaskirche

    • Primary Effect: +2 :c5happy: happiness in all cities
    • Other Effects:
    • City More Likely To Produce: Great Artist
    • Double Production Speed With: Marble
    • Other Requirements: Protestantism must be present
    • Obsoletes With:
    • Alternate Primary Effect:
    • Description:
    • Reasoning: Represents the cultural influence of J.S. Bach's music in the Lutheran Church. Also addresses the shortage of Protestant-specific wonders in the mod.

    Uraniborg
    • Primary Effect: castles in all cities provide +1 scientist specialist slot
    • Other Effects: this city receives +1 scientist specialist
    • City More Likely To Produce: Great Scientist
    • Double Production Speed With: Stone
    • Other Requirements: (Catholicism must be present?); requires Castle
    • Obsoletes With:
    • Alternate Primary Effect:
    • Description:
    • Reasoning: Reflects the phenomenal scientific discoveries made by Tycho Brahe in his personal observatory in Denmark. His naked-eye observations of the stars led him to develop the Rudolphine Tables, which were used by his student Johannes Kepler to develop the three Laws of Planetary Motion, which in turn led Isaac Newton to discover his own Three Laws of Motion.

    Louvre
    • Primary Effect: artist and Great Artist specialists produce +2 :commerce: commerce in all cities
    • Other Effects:
    • City More Likely To Produce: Great Artist
    • Double Production Speed With: Stone
    • Other Requirements:
    • Obsoletes With:
    • Alternate Primary Effect (1): this city receives +2 commerce for every ancient and classical wonder you own
    • Alternate Primary Effect (2): all cities receive +1 commerce for every level of accumulated culture
    • Alternate Primary Effect (3): all cities receive +1 commerce for every 5 culture per turn
    • Description:
    • Reasoning: Represents the effect of culture on both tourism gold and archaeological science.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2017
  6. The Turk

    The Turk Chieftain

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  7. Swarbs

    Swarbs Chieftain

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    Boyana Monastery sounds good, although would it not need a change to the Bulgarian 2nd UHV as it is already very doable with current theologian points?

    Could probably do with a couple for Morocco, to give them a boost and reflect the architecture and development around the Medina of Marrakesh:

    Koutoubia Mosque - Gives +5 stability under Islam. Helps Morocco maintain stability during the invasion of Iberia

    Ben Youssef Maddrassah - +100%:science:
     
  8. merijn_v1

    merijn_v1 Black Belt

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    A wonder I would like to see included is the Tyskebryggen. Ofcourse it should be connected to the Hanseatic league.

    My initial idea was to boost the Hanseatic league in the city/all cities of the civ somehow. (like 50% more commerce/yield per resource)
    But I think a raw bonus like +50% gold and just making the Hanseatic league a prequisite would also work.
     
  9. SanJose

    SanJose Chieftain

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    my suggestions
    Spoiler :

    orthodox:
    Saint Catherine's Monastery
    Primary Effect: choose one: monasteries receive
    • +5%:culture:
    • +5%:science:
    Other Effects: desert and semidesert tile: +1:commerce: +1 :hammers:
    City More Likely To Produce: Great Shcolar
    Double Production Speed With: stone
    Other Requirements: Orthodox must be present, Monasticism
    Obsoletes With: no/discussion
    Alternate Primary Effect: choose one:
    • The monastery library: X(= number of Orthodox civ) :science: per turn
    • Icon of Christ Pantocrator: The piety level does not decrease
    • The Well of Moses: fresh water, desert and semidesert tile: +1:commerce: +1 :hammers:
    • Burning bush: free priest, free citizen
    Description: link
    Reasoning: candidate for early game Orthodox WW

    Mount Athos
    Primary Effect: X(= number of Orthodox civ) :gold: per turn
    Other Effects: in diplo menu option "support monastery" for receiving piety (not for owner)
    City More Likely To Produce: Great Theologian/Great Shcolar
    Double Production Speed With: stone
    Other Requirements: Orthodox must be present
    Obsoletes With: no/Gunpowder?
    Alternate Primary Effect: vineyard and apiary: +1:hammers: in all cities
    Description: link
    Reasoning: candidate for early game Orthodox WW

    Golden Gate, Kiev
    Primary Effect: Half the :hammers:cost barracks/stables
    Other Effects:
    City More Likely To Produce: Great Spy
    Double Production Speed With: stone
    Other Requirements: Orthodox must be present, Walls, Palace, Siege Engines
    Obsoletes With: Military Tradition
    Alternate Primary Effect: additional :strength: against low-lvl barbarian units
    Description: link
    Reasoning: candidate for early/middle game Orthodox WW

    Kizhi Pogost
    Primary Effect: no :sad: for drafting
    Other Effects:
    City More Likely To Produce: Great Theologian
    Double Production Speed With: Timber
    Other Requirements: Orthodox must be present
    Obsoletes With:no
    Alternate Primary Effect:
    Description: link
    Reasoning: candidate for late game Orthodox WW

    Trinity Lavra of St. Sergius

    Primary Effect: choose one
    • An ascetic of the Russian land: +1 stability per Orthodox WW under control
    • The siege of Lavra: +25-50% :strength: against mercenaries/ monastery: +25-50% defence
    • The Theological academy: +1 :science: from Priest in all cities
    Other Effects:
    City More Likely To Produce: Great Theologian
    Double Production Speed With: Stone
    Other Requirements: Orthodox must be present, Patronage, Philosophy
    Obsoletes With: no
    Alternate Primary Effect:
    Description: link
    Reasoning: candidate for middle game Orthodox WW

    The Solovetsky Monastery
    Primary Effect: choose one
    • Solovetsky Prison: +1 :espionage: from Priest in all cities
    • Fortress: reduction in bombing damage
    • Iron Poustinia: +20% :hammers:
    • The gifts of Pomorie: provides 1 Salt, 1 Furs, 1 Fish
    Other Effects:
    City More Likely To Produce: Great Theologian
    Double Production Speed With: Stone
    Other Requirements: Orthodox must be present, Divine Right
    Obsoletes With: no
    Alternate Primary Effect:
    Description: link
    Reasoning: out of map, unfortunately; candidate for middle game Orthodox WW


    Novodevichy Convent, also known as Bogoroditse-Smolensky Monastery
    Primary Effect: free Priest per Civic changes
    Other Effects: +5 piety
    City More Likely To Produce: Great Theologian
    Double Production Speed With: Stone
    Other Requirements: Orthodox must be present, Divine Right
    Obsoletes With: no
    Alternate Primary Effect:
    Description: link
    Reasoning: candidate for middle/late game Orthodox WW

    Islam:
    Spoiler :

    The Kızıl Kule (Red Tower)
    Primary Effect: Naval analog of Great Wall, 50% defence
    Other Effects: additional :strength: against naval barbarian units
    City More Likely To Produce: Great Engineer
    Double Production Speed With: Stone
    Other Requirements: Islam must be present, Clockmaking, Patronage
    Obsoletes With: no
    Alternate Primary Effect: less/free cost of naval mercenaries,
    Description: link
    Reasoning: candidate for middle game Islamic WW

    Al-Azhar
    Primary Effect: 15-25% fast to learning religious techs
    Other Effects:
    City More Likely To Produce: Great Scholar
    Double Production Speed With: Marble
    Other Requirements: Islam must be present, Vaulted Arches
    Obsoletes With: Chivalry or Military Tradition
    Alternate Primary Effect:
    Description: link
    Reasoning: candidate for early game Islamic WW

    The Menara gardens(Can be replaced by the bazaars/souks of Marrakech)
    Primary Effect:+1-2 trade route for cities near oasis, +%25-50 trade route yield
    Other Effects:
    City More Likely To Produce: Great Merchant
    Double Production Speed With:
    Other Requirements: Islam must be present, Patronage, Arabic knowledge
    Obsoletes With:
    Alternate Primary Effect: Terraforming near oasis(camels, dates, etc spawns)
    Description: link
    Reasoning: candidate for middle game Islamic WW

    The Sultan Ahmed Mosque(Blue Mosque)
    Primary Effect: Reduces the penalty for participating in a war
    Other Effects: -25% War :sad: in all cities, + 10 piety
    City More Likely To Produce: Great Theologian
    Double Production Speed With: Marble
    Other Requirements: Islam must be present, Classical knowledge, Arabic knowledge,
    Obsoletes With: no
    Alternate Primary Effect:
    Description: link
    Reasoning: candidate for middle/late game Islamic WW

    The Selimiye Mosque
    Primary Effect: half :hammers: cost for hammam if mosque was build in cities
    Other Effects:
    City More Likely To Produce: Great Theologian
    Double Production Speed With: Marble
    Other Requirements: Islam must be present, Classical knowledge, Arabic knowledge
    Obsoletes With: no
    Alternate Primary Effect:
    Description: link
    Reasoning: candidate for middle/late game Islamic WW

    other:
    Spoiler :

    Atelier Saint-Jean d'Acre
    Primary Effect: choose one
    • Melisende Psalter - free Cathedral(Reliquary)
    • Guillaume de Tyr's Histoire d'Outremer - free City Garrison prom for unit

    Other Effects:
    City More Likely To Produce: Great Artist
    Double Production Speed With:
    Other Requirements: Islam, Orthodox, Catholicism must be present, Chivalry
    Obsoletes With:
    Alternate Primary Effect:
    Description: Melisende Psalter, Guillaume de Tyr's Histoire d'Outremer
    Reasoning: candidate for middle game WW

    Stari Most (Old Bridge)
    Primary Effect: +%50 trade route yield with сities with two or more religions
    Other Effects: +1 trade route
    City More Likely To Produce: Great Engineer
    Double Production Speed With: Stone
    Other Requirements: Islam, Catholicism must be present, Public Works
    Obsoletes With: no
    Alternate Primary Effect:
    Description: link
    Reasoning: candidate for late game WW

    Golubac Fortress
    Primary Effect: double defence bonus "from crossing the river"
    Other Effects:
    City More Likely To Produce:
    Double Production Speed With:
    Other Requirements: Plate Armor, Siege Engines
    Obsoletes With: Nationalism
    Alternate Primary Effect:
    Description: link
    Reasoning: candidate for middle/late game WW

    Amber Room
    Primary Effect: choose civ for "gift", diplo boost with that civ
    Other Effects: additional diplo boost from Defensive Pact
    City More Likely To Produce: Great Artist
    Double Production Speed With: Amber
    Other Requirements: Military Tactics
    Obsoletes With: no
    Alternate Primary Effect:
    Description: link
    Reasoning: candidate for late game WW
     
  10. El Bogus

    El Bogus Chieftain

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    I think it would be nice to add some of the ancient World Wonders to the game for flavor (especially if Egypt is added), namely The Great Lighthouse and The Pyramids. In my opinion, they should be a weaker version of the vanilla ones. We already have preplaced wonders in Constaninople, after all.
    The Great Lighthouse would be a Wonder placed in Alexandria with maybe 2 :culture: which would vanish on conquest anyway and could give +50 % trade route yield.
    The Pyramids would be an object on the map which would give a culture bonus if a city is built adjacent to it. Would that be possible?
    What do you think about Petra?
     
    ales_ and Publicola like this.
  11. The Turk

    The Turk Chieftain

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    Pyramids were irrelevant, and I'm pretty sure the Great Lighthouse was destroyed early into the game due to an earthquake, making it irrelevant. The Citadel below was actually built on top of it.

    For Egypt ibn Tulun's Mosque (Spiral design mosque), al-Azhar (a must) and the Alexandria Citadel (Can be called Citadel of Qaitbay - Mamluke era).
     
  12. merijn_v1

    merijn_v1 Black Belt

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    I like it. It will add a little flavor to the game, without being disruptive.
     
  13. Swarbs

    Swarbs Chieftain

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    The Lighthouse survived for quite a while - damaged by earthquake in the 900s then properly destroyed in the 1300s. There's even the apocryphal story that the first damage to it was caused by a Byzantine agent who undermined the foundations, showing it did have some significance at the time.

    I agree the Pyramids were largely irrelevant at the time, Petra could be added but will be in the BFC of Jerusalem so not sure what impact it would have.
     
  14. El Bogus

    El Bogus Chieftain

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    Well, I am sure the Pyramids were at least famous for being one of the seven World Wonders. Anyway, they don't have to have an effect if it bothers too many of you but they still exist today so it would be nice to be graphically on the map. That's just a suggestion, though.
     
  15. The Turk

    The Turk Chieftain

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    So does stonehenge, plenty of ancient Greek and Roman temples and the Lascaux Cave paintings, why don't we add them in? Because they served zero purpose.

    I seriously see zero reason to add either the Pyramids or Petra. The Lighthouse was over the course of time made irrelevant. If you want to add the Lighthouse since the game begins in 500AD, I guess there is no problem there. But have it disappear in 956 then. I wouldn't make the bonus that strong, perhaps a bit of culture and commerce.

    Come to think of it, I think SoI does the same thing, the lighthouse is in Alexandria and then it disappears in the 900s.
     
  16. El Bogus

    El Bogus Chieftain

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    While these are not on the list of the classical seven world wonders I see no problem in adding Stonehenge graphically to the map.
     
  17. The Turk

    The Turk Chieftain

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    You would have to add it to a city. There is no city at present for the Pyramids, Petra or Stonehenge. The only justification I see is for the Lighthouse, and only if it disappears.

    As for the Lighthouse I just checked, the bonuses in SOI are:

    +1 Great Merchant
    +100% Trade Route Yield
    Increases the chance to attract Karimi Family

    I think this is sensible. It also disappears in the 1300s.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2017
  18. Force44

    Force44 Chieftain

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    @The Turk

    The challenge with coming up with new wonders is not finding reason why they shouldn't be there but why they should.
     
  19. The Turk

    The Turk Chieftain

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    The challenge with coming up with new wonders is making sure bad ideas don't blossom, and we stick to wonders that actually mattered.

    Plus finding wonder bonuses that don't open up all civics, I really detest those.
     
  20. Force44

    Force44 Chieftain

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    No, you only mean a part of that. Bad Ideas are bad, I concur. But you aim for finding good ideas. (gameplaywise and preferably historically (the wonders that matter)) Else there would be no point in sharing your thoughts.

    You noted some things you didn't like about the Pyramids for RFCE, so the challenge is to find a way around your objections to give them a place.
     

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