[R&F] Wonder movie - Kilwa Kisiwani

[Guandao]

i don't know they are being quite accurate with the representation of their leaders, i mean gandhi for once looks indian and not a white guy with a tan like in civ 5, though the fact that seondeok is now very criticized for their appearance doesn't look good for the rest of the leaders of the expansion.
i'm sorry i don't agree with you on the last point. i think that the arabic influence just makes it more interesting and original, like nubia: they are a black african tribe yet they look egyptian in culture, it gives it more depth imo, rather than a static culture that never was influenced from the outside (which, by the way excludes ethiopia, ashanti, benin etc. since they all were influenced by their surroundings, i mean thats why ethiopia is coptic yet with a large muslim minority and ahmaric is considered a semitic language).

I think Montezuma in this game doesn't resemble an indigenous Mesoamerican. Someone even compared his face to Weird Al Yankovic.
I agree to disagree. I'm not interested in an Arabic influenced African Civ as much as the other African ones. I find Arabic culture to be uninteresting. It's just my personal taste. As an anthropologist, I know that no culture can truly be considered "static", but I agree that my characterization of Ethiopia, Ashanti, Benin as not influenced by the outside was incorrect. Ethiopia isn't Coptic, by the way.

1.At least al-Hasan ibn Sulaiman is well known.
2. Their rulers if Kilwa (and probably the the elite as well) were immigrants from Persia, Oman and Yenen afaik. There are still debates going on on this topic. And of course as usual, not always based on reason or findings.
3. I‘d prefer some others as well. I‘d like to have Oman at one day though - and I think it is possible that someone would do Kilwa or a Swahili civ instead...

1. al-Hasan ibn Sulaiman has barely any info on his English Wiki page.
2. I thought archaeology disproved that. If they were immigrants from the Middle East, that would make me interested in them even less. What interested me about the Swahili was that they are a Bantu people who adopted cultural aspects from the Arabs.
3. I would not mind Oman becoming a Civ, but I prefer Yemen.

I have encountered this idea than an African people cannot be considered a Civilization unless they are influenced by an outside source (usually Middle Eastern). That's also a reason for me to be less enthusiastic about a Swahili Civ. I'm not impressed by Firaxis' Civilopedia entry about Great Zimbabwe (which suggests that the Queen of Sheba story about the ruins is more interesting than the reality), and certain aspects of Kongo's implementation (his Agenda, and his leaderscreen background). Nubia was good, though I didn't expect Amanitore to be that heavyset . I'm hoping Firaxis will do better on future African Civs.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I have encountered this idea than an African people cannot be considered a Civilization unless they are influenced by an outside source (usually Middle Eastern). That's also a reason for me to be less enthusiastic about a Swahili Civ. I'm not impressed by Firaxis' Civilopedia entry about Great Zimbabwe (which suggests that the Queen of Sheba story about the ruins is more interesting than the reality), and certain aspects of Kongo's implementation (his Agenda, and his leaderscreen background). Nubia was good, though I didn't expect Amanitore to be that heavyset . I'm hoping Firaxis will do better on future African Civs.

There are some that require that though, such as Mali adopting Islam. Ethiopia even adopted Christianity early on. Of course these aren't deal breakers for me, and I don't know much about the Kilwa Sultanate, but I agree that when I think of the Swahili, I don't think of it as a Muslim state founded by foreigners.
Of course there are always the Zulu, who resisted a lot of outside influence.

 

[Zaarin]

i don't know they are being quite accurate with the representation of their leaders, i mean gandhi for once looks indian and not a white guy with a tan like in civ 5, though the fact that seondeok is now very criticized for their appearance doesn't look good for the rest of the leaders of the expansion.
i'm sorry i don't agree with you on the last point. i think that the arabic influence just makes it more interesting and original, like nubia: they are a black african tribe yet they look egyptian in culture, it gives it more depth imo, rather than a static culture that never was influenced from the outside (which, by the way excludes ethiopia, ashanti, benin etc. since they all were influenced by their surroundings, i mean thats why ethiopia is coptic yet with a large muslim minority and ahmaric is considered a semitic language).

Gandhi would have to look human before he could like Indian; Civ6 Gandhi looks like the unholy offspring of Gollum and troll doll.

 

[eso12por8]

How can a great civilization exist if it's not influenced by other civilizations?

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

By the way, from the Dutch leaked screenshots, we know this comes at Machinery.

 

[eso12por8]

I'm personally partial to Mali. Sundiata remains one of the most inspirational stories to me. Very rich in great proverbs.

"God is the guest's tongue."

 

[Morningcalm]

I am really partial to Mali too--what a glorious, mighty empire with wealth in salt and gold alike. The fact that it was Muslim is just an added bonus.

Glad Kilwa is in as a wonder though; would not have liked them to be in as a Civ.

 

[Guatenadian]

Glad Kilwa is in as a wonder though; would not have liked them to be in as a Civ.

We all know that a wonder does not guarantee that the Civ will enter alongside it, but that also doesn't mean that Civ wont enter either. There's still a chance the Kilwa/Swahili could enter the game.

 

[Guandao]

We all know that a wonder does not guarantee that the Civ will enter alongside it, but that also doesn't mean that Civ wont enter either. There's still a chance the Kilwa/Swahili could enter the game.

I'm leaning towards them not becoming a Civ though, since there's so little information on the greatest Swahili Kings. I'll be okay with their inclusion if they do make it in, provided that their leaders aren't presented as Middle Eastern migrants. I read in a recent Archeology magazine article that their leaders were proven to be native Africans.

Then I remember Great Zimbabwe's Queen of Sheba quote. And its Civilopedia entry finding this story more interesting that the true origin of Great Zimbabwe.

 

[AmtrakQuebec]

I want this Wonder! GIMME!!!

 

[Siptah]

I read in a recent Archeology magazine article that their leaders were proven to be native Africans.

Do you have a title / author of the article? I'd be interested in reading it.

 

[agonistes]

I low key wanted to see this place go full-blown CSI till the final week

I'd been using google earth to traverse coastlines all throughout Africa and the Middle East.

 

[God of Kings]

I'd been using google earth to traverse coastlines all throughout Africa and the Middle East.

That is indeed a chore. At least Firaxis was kind enough to reveal that it's Kilwa Kisiwani.

 

[Guandao]

Do you have a title / author of the article? I'd be interested in reading it.

I'll search for it. It's not a scholarly magazine, but one meant for the layperson. I'll message you once I found it.

 

[Victoria]

The thing I like about all these wonders coming up is with more wonders in the game either you have more chance of building them or the AI will spend more time building them.... or more likely ... both!

 

[Guandao]

The thing I like about all these wonders coming up is with more wonders in the game either you have more chance of building them or the AI will spend more time building them.... or more likely ... both!

I like it that the AI never tries to build Angkor Wat, because they don't build Aqueducts.

 

[Victoria]

I like it that the AI never tries to build Angkor Wat, because they don't build Aqueducts

Or the Venetian Arsenal, because they support Tottenham

 

[pgm123]

... I'm not interested in an Arabic influenced African Civ as much as the other African ones. I find Arabic culture to be uninteresting. It's just my personal taste.

1. al-Hasan ibn Sulaiman has barely any info on his English Wiki page.

Strictly speaking, the Swahili culture is influenced by Persian, Arabic, and Indian trade. There's a legend of a Kilwa Dynasty being founded by a Persian Sultan who married into the local African royal family. But there are legends like this throughout Africa. The Ethiopian royal dynasty dated itself back to King Solomon and the Queen of Sheba. In eastern Sudan, the ancestry was dated to Arab tribes. Kanem's first king was allegedly the King of Yemen. The Keita family of Mali claims to date back to the entourage of Muhammad. In Nigeria, there's a legend that the Yoruba people were Canaanites. There's quite strong evidence of African origins for these, but that doesn't necessarily mean they didn't have outside influence or there wasn't a common narrative of outside influence associated with Islam, Christianity, or Judaism. All this is from the UNESCO history of Africa, btw.

There's a lot of information about Kilwa and the Swahili trade in the UNESCO history of Africa. There's a lot less about al-Hasan ibn Sulaiman II. It mentions it is believed he built the Husni Kubwa. It talks about his dynasty a bit. But unfortunately, that is it. I am curious if the Kilwa Chronicle has more information. There are two versions that exist--one written in Arabic and the other in Portuguese. The two versions are basically the same in regards to the genealogy of the kings, but differ when discussing the Kilwa war with the Portuguese and the Portuguese occupation. I haven't found an English translation, but I'll admit that I didn't look very hard.

 

[Guandao]

Strictly speaking, the Swahili culture is influenced by Persian, Arabic, and Indian trade. There's a legend of a Kilwa Dynasty being founded by a Persian Sultan who married into the local African royal family. But there are legends like this throughout Africa. The Ethiopian royal dynasty dated itself back to King Solomon and the Queen of Sheba. In eastern Sudan, the ancestry was dated to Arab tribes. Kanem's first king was allegedly the King of Yemen. The Keita family of Mali claims to date back to the entourage of Muhammad. In Nigeria, there's a legend that the Yoruba people were Canaanites. There's quite strong evidence of African origins for these, but that doesn't necessarily mean they didn't have outside influence or there wasn't a common narrative of outside influence associated with Islam, Christianity, or Judaism. All this is from the UNESCO history of Africa, btw.

There's a lot of information about Kilwa and the Swahili trade in the UNESCO history of Africa. There's a lot less about al-Hasan ibn Sulaiman II. It mentions it is believed he built the Husni Kubwa. It talks about his dynasty a bit. But unfortunately, that is it. I am curious if the Kilwa Chronicle has more information. There are two versions that exist--one written in Arabic and the other in Portuguese. The two versions are basically the same in regards to the genealogy of the kings, but differ when discussing the Kilwa war with the Portuguese and the Portuguese occupation. I haven't found an English translation, but I'll admit that I didn't look very hard.

I'm wary of taking these legends/ancestry claims as truth. Especially the Yoruba being Canaanites. Africans shouldn't need to claim Middle Eastern origins/ancestry to make themselves feel better. They need to have pride in their indigenous origins.

 

[Zaarin]

I'm wary of taking these legends/ancestry claims as truth. Especially the Yoruba being Canaanites. Africans shouldn't need to claim Middle Eastern origins/ancestry to make themselves feel better. They need to have pride in their indigenous origins.

Origin myths are nothing new, though. Practically every nation in Europe at one time claimed some connection to Troy, in East Asia there are a lot of myths linking to China, and in Southeast Asia to India. See also: Jesus/Mary/Buddha/Rama touched this/owned this/sat here/ate here/etc.