Wonder plan

[Wojciech_R]

Hi,

Variables:

1. Map - Continents PLUS
2. Map size- standard, -1 CIV, -2 CS
3. Game pace - Epic
4. Difficulty - Prince
5. CIV - MAYA
6. Plan - wide game, liberty, Science Victory.

What would you say would be optimal wonder plan (which wonders I should build, and in what order)?

 

[yung.carl.jung]

How about you add a screenshot of your starting turf?..

Petra will be no good if all you have is Floodplains. Mausoleum is great with three Stones and one Marble, but pretty bad if you don't have any..

For a wide science game the most important wonders are, in my opinion:

(Great Library), Temple of Artemis, Pyramids, (Oracle), (Chichen Itza), (Macchu Picchu), (Notre Dame), Leaning Tower of Pisa, Porcelain Tower, Big Ben (If going Freedom/Comm), Statue of Liberty (If going Freedom), Hubble Space Telescope

All Wonders in () are great for literally every VC, not limited to SV.

 

[Salvatierra]

Hmmm you`re gonna be playing a really long game, let´s say that you take adventage of all those extra turns, mostly doing exploration and searching for ruins, (I assume you`re playing a large map to support a wide civ) with some luck you can get Great Library ussualy the most contested wonder in every game, from there i will go with:

List of Wonders

Absolutelly necessary
Very helpfull
Handy to have

Ancient

Great Library (Very early push on science it also grants a GS point)
Temple of Artemis c5food: = =)
Hanging Gardens (same as Temple of Artemis)

Classical

Oracle (it gaves you a GS point)
Colossus (You can use the extra trade route as an internal food trade route)
Petra (same as Colossus)

Medieval

Notre Dame (as a wide civ you will be running out of happiness very soon)

Renaissance

Leaning Tower of Pisa (faster GS generation)
Porcelain Tower (only if you are planning to be a very diplomatic civ player this game)
Taj Mahal (same as Notre Dame)

Industrial

Big Ben (if you`re going Fredom it will help you purchasing G.S.)
Eiffel Tower (Same as Notre Dame)

Modern

Hubble Space Telescope (the game-breaking wonder for SV)
CN Tower (Same as Temple of Artemis)


Also make a religion with one of these beliefs (not both of them because these civ can´t support it)

Fertility Rites
Swords into Plowshares (both very powerfull specially in the late game)

and one of these...

Feed the World
Interfaith Dialogue
Sun God
Messenger of the Gods
Goddess of the Hunt

And don´t forget about the National wonders, National College and Oxford University are absolutelly necesary, and if you´re going really wide, go for Circus Maximus.

 

[Wild_Woojsha]

For prince, here is a crazy plan to try out:

Step 1 - Build scout, monument, scout, worker in your capital, grow it to 4-5 population by turn ???(effing epic speed) if possible.
Step 2 - Take the two policy's in left liberty by turn ???(effing epic speed) to get speedy settlers
Step 3 - Build and plant all of your settlers right after you take collective rule for speed settlers
Step 4 - Build Great Library by turn ???(effing epic speed) if possible otherwise someone else will get it.
Step 5 - Use the free technology to take philosophy, before that make sure libraries are within ???(effing epic speed) turns of being complete or less if possible in all cities, start on pyramids and switch to National College when available.
Step 6 - Finish National College and Pyramids, then try for Temple of Artemis.
Step 7 - Go for Oracle for the free Social Policy, take a policy in tradition if you want hanging gardens, its always nice to have 6 food in a city.
Step 8 - Chichen Itza for longer golden ages OR Petra if you have a desert city that could use it OR Great Lighthouse and Colossus if they are still available and you are coastal. Your navy will thank you later for the first one.
Step 9 - At this point, your lead should be so significant that taking wonders should not be too hard so you are on your own from here!

 

[phillipwyllie]

...4. Difficulty - Prince...

Assuming you want a fast SV then you will need to up the difficulty. If not then the only early wonder you want is ToA.

 

[Chum]

Hmmm you`re gonna be playing a really long game, let´s say that you take adventage of all those extra turns, mostly doing exploration and searching for ruins, (I assume you`re playing a large map to support a wide civ) with some luck you can get Great Library ussualy the most contested wonder in every game, from there i will go with:

List of Wonders

Absolutelly necessary
Very helpfull
Handy to have

Ancient

Great Library (Very early push on science it also grants a GS point)
Temple of Artemis c5food: = =)
Hanging Gardens (same as Temple of Artemis)

Classical

Oracle (it gaves you a GS point)
Colossus (You can use the extra trade route as an internal food trade route)
Petra (same as Colossus)

Medieval

Notre Dame (as a wide civ you will be running out of happiness very soon)

Renaissance

Leaning Tower of Pisa (faster GS generation)
Porcelain Tower (only if you are planning to be a very diplomatic civ player this game)
Taj Mahal (same as Notre Dame)

Industrial

Big Ben (if you`re going Fredom it will help you purchasing G.S.)
Eiffel Tower (Same as Notre Dame)

Modern

Hubble Space Telescope (the game-breaking wonder for SV)
CN Tower (Same as Temple of Artemis)


Also make a religion with one of these beliefs (not both of them because these civ can´t support it)

Fertility Rites
Swords into Plowshares (both very powerfull specially in the late game)

and one of these...

Feed the World
Interfaith Dialogue
Sun God
Messenger of the Gods
Goddess of the Hunt

And don´t forget about the National wonders, National College and Oxford University are absolutelly necesary, and if you´re going really wide, go for Circus Maximus.

What is going on here?

So much poor information. Hanging gardens isn't the same as Temple of Artemis. ToA is WAY better. HG also requires tradition to open, so if he's planning on going full liberty and not opening tradition, it's off the table.

Porcelain tower is for diplomatic civ players? It grants a great scientist and 50% RA's. That's not at all what that means.

Big Ben doesn't affect the cost of purchasing GS's because GS's aren't purchased with Gold.

CN tower is completely moot. The game is over for a sci victory before you're able to build it. By the time you get it, your science no longer matters. Same with Hubble - it's not game breaking, it's the ending of the game. If you get Hubble, the game is already over, you're just using the GS's to mop up. It's not a situation of "I need Hubble to win" because you're never going to be in that situation. You're either going to lose because you don't get to Satellites first, or you're not.

And your religion piece is all askew. You can't have fertility rites and Sun God/Goddess of the hunt because they're both Pantheon beliefs and you can't pick more than one. Fertility Rites is awful, by the way, and no one should take it ever.

 

[Salvatierra]

What is going on here?

Sorry, my bad, I had a long time without playing CiV and seems that I'm getting confused with some concepts, I put my best intention to help but I ended in a mess, sorry Wojciech_R don't take my suggestion this time I will be more clear next time...

 

[Ribannah]

Don't forget the Sistine Chapel.

Hanging Gardens is essential if the capital is not on a river. Temple of Artemis is less critical. It allows you to grow a little faster, but not bigger.

 

[Sclb]

Hanging Gardens is essential if the capital is not on a river. Temple of Artemis is less critical. It allows you to grow a little faster, but not bigger.

It's the other way around. ToA modifies the total food, not surplus food, on every cities. HG is just a flat food increase. Did you even read Chum's post?

 

[Manpanzee]

I have quite a bit of experience playing for fast wide SV on medium difficulties. There are a small amount of wonders that you always want to approach the same, and a larger number that are good but game-dependent.

Always:
Great Library -- On Prince difficulty, you can usually get this around t70 standard speed. On Epic, that'll be t100-110. You have time to build all your Settlers before this, but not by much. This should be your first build as soon as Settlers are done.
Oracle -- Save for Renaissance Era, finish immediately then to get going in Rationalism.
Hubble -- Duh.
Porcelain Tower -- Save for endgame. Finish the same turn as Hubble, one turn after the last natural Great Scientist spawn.
Chichen Itza -- Happiness is extremely valuable in a wide game, extra Golden Age is great too. Build ASAP
Notre Dame -- 10 happiness = awesome. Build ASAP
Big Ben -- Incredible in the late game. I always at least open Commerce. Freedom is just better than Order.

Depends:
Temple of Artemis -- You always want this, and usually I build it right after Great Library. However, you don't need to build it yourself to get the full effect. Sometimes easier to just take it from the AI.
Leaning Tower of Pisa -- You always want to build this, but the timing can vary. One option is to save for the endgame and finish along with Hubble and Porcelain. Alternatively, you can build this in the Renaissance and plant an Academy. Building in the Renaissance is a bit better I think, but hammers are scarce and you don't always go straight for Printing Press. Get it in Renaissance if you can; if you have to delay it's no big deal.
Stonehenge, Borobudur, & Hagia Sophia -- Depends on your faith generation. If you have tons of faith you can skip.
Pyramids -- Ideally you can steal enough Workers that you don't need more, but that's not reliable on Prince. If you need to build Workers, this is better than just building them normally.
Petra & Colossus -- Dirt-dependent, but you should build them if you can.
Hanging Gardens & Mausoleum of Halicarnassus -- Good but low priority. Sometimes the AI beats you there and you don't really care.
Machu Picchu -- Always worth building if you can spare the hammers at the proper time. Guilds is sometimes off the natural tech path, so you might get beaten there.
Sistine Chapel & Globe Theater -- Depends on culture output. If lots of Cultural CS, you can skip.
Forbidden Palace -- Must-build if you have Patronage.
Taj Mahal -- Awkward timing. Happiness and Golden Age are both great, but you'll get this right around the same time as Ideology Happiness kicks in, and sometimes you have eternal Golden Age already.

Everything else:
Don't.

 

[Ribannah]

It's the other way around. ToA modifies the total food, not surplus food, on every cities. HG is just a flat food increase. Did you even read Chum's post?

There's nothing about this is his post.

I forgot the error in the description of the Temple of Artemis because I rarely build it. My assessment stays the same.

The Hanging Gardens gives you a free garden, which you cannot get otherwise without a river. This means more Great Scientists.

The Temple of Artemis doesn't give your empire more extra food than the Hanging Gardens for quite a while, and it's not concentrated in the capital where your science output per head is highest. It also comes at a time that you'd want to build different things.

 

[Chum]

There's nothing about this is his post.

I forgot the error in the description of the Temple of Artemis because I rarely build it. My assessment stays the same.

The Hanging Gardens gives you a free garden, which you cannot get otherwise without a river. This means more Great Scientists.

The Temple of Artemis doesn't give your empire more extra food than the Hanging Gardens for quite a while, and it's not concentrated in the capital where your science output per head is highest. It also comes at a time that you'd want to build different things.

Seeing as how a river (or lake, both work for gardens) is a high priority for settling, the point is basically moot. If you have a good capital, it's already settled on freshwater, which means you can get a garden. That makes the difference between ToA and HG 15% growth on ALL FOOD in ALL CITIES vs 6 food in one city. It's pretty ridiculous to even begin to claim the latter is better in any scenario.

 

[Ribannah]

Perhaps you are someone who re-rolls if your capital doesn't have fresh water?

The Temple of Artemis is cheaper. That should give you a hint.

 

[Chum]

Perhaps you are someone who re-rolls if your capital doesn't have fresh water?

The Temple of Artemis is cheaper. That should give you a hint.

I don't know what any of this has to do with anything.

You're still wrong, though. ToA is the best growth wonder in the game by a wide margin.

 

[Ribannah]

Only for weak players. If your science game lasts 320 turns then, maybe. Once you reduce that to 220 turns the proceeds are far smaller. The Great Library or the Pyramids will let you win faster. And grow bigger, too

 

[tommynt]

I have to agree to Riba - ToA is a kind of bad Wonder and not really worth the hammers at the early stage of the game - these hammers are much better invested in other stuff.

Actually no wonder is worth to be built before there are 4+ cities

But then its doesnt really matter what u do at prince lvl.
Still to learn the game I d advise not to built any (early) wonders at all and see how cities develop FAST with building more useful stuff

 

[Chum]

I have to agree to Riba - ToA is a kind of bad Wonder and not really worth the hammers at the early stage of the game - these hammers are much better invested in other stuff.

Actually no wonder is worth to be built before there are 4+ cities

But then its doesnt really matter what u do at prince lvl.
Still to learn the game I d advise not to built any (early) wonders at all and see how cities develop FAST with building more useful stuff

Well, "not worth it" is a different argument.

Obviously opportunity cost for ToA is much higher than HG, but that wasn't the original discussion, and certainly not within the scope of this particular subject of doing a wide game on prince. ToA is the superior wonder, it's just generally not attainable outside of an amazing start, or some odd decisions by the AI (or some combination thereof).

 

[Aea]

The Temple of Artemis is cheaper. That should give you a hint.

They're in different eras? What am I missing?

P.S. ToA in MP is amazing if you can grab it.

 

[Chum]

They're in different eras? What am I missing?

P.S. ToA in MP is amazing if you can grab it.

We're missing some sort of l33t logic that says that it's somehow inferior, when simple math proves it's not. I get not understanding how good it is, but to be cryptic trying to defend that so you don't look like you don't know how good it is is kinda silly.

It's a 10% bump on total food, which makes it better than any other food boost in the game, including Landed Elite. 6 food from HG covers 3 citizens, period. 10% bump on total food means as soon as you reach 60 total food, you're ahead. You're running caravans/cargos to the capital right? Of course you are, you want a big capital. Well, it's not hard to hit 60 total food, and from that point on, ToA is better for the rest of the game. I mean, it's better before it too, because HG only affects one city while ToA affects them all, but even if you think you need growth concentrated in the capital, it's still inferior.

 

[stormtrooper412]

ToA is maybe a top 3 best wonders in the game but it's not reeeeeeeeeeeeeeally all that important to have it for a stellar game. It's just that goofy