Wonder priority

[iDagon]

Hi..

I was a noble player not long ago, but I an fairing decently at monarch now.

Ever since I joined, i've been reading a lot on shadow games around and I don't really understand some wonder prioritization (sp?) of some good players.. I mean, sure, I am all for the mids, Glibrary and such, however:

1. TGW. why? Admitedly, I sometimes play without barbs, but even when I don't, they don't seem that much of a hassle.. At least on this difficulty.. Also, the AI seems to love this one a lot, even when barbs are Off. o_o

2. The Oracle. Yeah, sure, you get a free Tech, but you also have to invest in priesthood path, witch dosen't seem that attractive.. Not as good as writing for your Civ and not a good Tech to grade as the AI gets it most of the time aswell.. The only time I want Oracle is when I go for a slingshot MC and try to nail mids of a great engineer. C-C-C-Combo Breaker!!

3. TGL. at first, it seems awesome, but I never seem to get that much out of it.. Maybe I don't plan for it but I was never impressed.

And most of all!
4. Golden Age wonders. Mausoleum and Taj. Why? I just don't understand this.. Golden ages are nice but is it really worth it pumping so many hammers in Taj just for a GA?
Or mausoleum.. How many GA do you actually get during a game? 3 at most, I presume. So mausoleum = Taj. Is there smth I just don't see?

Also, I see some wonders (sankore and angkor wat come to mind) that see much less love.. And in my eyes they seem much stronger..

I appreciate any words of wisdom..

 

[Habitus]

TGW is usually built in Isolation Starts, Always War Games, or when you are going to use alot of espionage and you want a great spy early.

The Oracle is probably one of the few Wonders that is an option in all games, the techs you research to build the Oracle should be less beakers than what you get from it + the AI doesn't get a free tech if you build it.

TGL (Lighthouse not Library i'm guessing) is good when you are going to have a alot of coastal cities either due to the Map Script, or due to the land around your start. +2 Trade Routes = +2 commerce atleast (generally more as the game goes on), this helps the city pay for itself and lets you research faster.

Taj is something thats built if you can and have nothing better to build, Mausoleum is the same but happens alot less often (as generally get it at a time you have more important things to build or get Calander after its already built thru trades). Sankore comes at the time AIs are heading towards Free Religion, so its a time your generally not going to be in a religion long for it to have enough benefits to be build other than when there is nothing better to build (since you get Universities right after it thats not common). Angkor is a great wonder for a Specialist people don't like to run as Great Prophets are in general not needed (Shrines are better to capture than build, most of the bulbs for a priest are early and not as good as a scientist bulbs are same era, settling is good but most people want their Great People for more than just settling.

 

[Quaren]

1. Not a big fan of TGW myself since I usually play fairly crowded maps where barbs hardly have time to spawn or with the GF who forces me to turn them off but on higher difficulties on spacious maps barbs can get out of hand.

2. For higher difficulty players The Oracle is more than just a free tech since you can easily choose a tech which can be traded for a lot of techs that other AIs have. It also helps if your aiming for a special tactic like HA rush to get that rush going alot sooner than you might be able to otherwise.
Some tactics may also involve going down the religion path and then you tech towards it anyway.

3. Library or Lighthouse? Library is great for great people production and Lighthouse is insane in my opinion on water maps. Your new cities pretty much pay for themselves right away so you can rex like crazy.

4. Consider you want to change civics. The hammers saved nationwide for not having to cope with anarchy for a turn or 2 might actually be enough to pay back the cost. And that isn't even counting all the other bonuses like extra income and GP production.

 

[Ghpstage]

1. TGW. why? Admitedly, I sometimes play without barbs, but even when I don't, they don't seem that much of a hassle.. At least on this difficulty.. Also, the AI seems to love this one a lot, even when barbs are Off. o_o

I don't like this one very much, but I can see how the spy points make it have fans. If you get landed with lots of uncontested open land its also the most effective method of dealing with the barbs.

The Oracle is probably one of the few Wonders that is an option in all games, the techs you research to build the Oracle should be less beakers than what you get from it + the AI doesn't get a free tech if you build it.

Added to this Oracle is relatively cheap to build, and some of the things you can pick up off it (MC, Theocracy, CoL) can be very strong when used well and have considerable trade value.
For one example consider using the Oracle to get CoL. This allows you very early access to Caste, which when used well is an amazing civic, it opens up the Philosophy bulb (Pacifism), and CoL itself can be traded for Alpha/Maths/Whatever earlier techs.

3. TGL. at first, it seems awesome, but I never seem to get that much out of it.. Maybe I don't plan for it but I was never impressed.

TGL can get silly strong if you find overseas neighbours failry early, but is solid if most of your cities will be coastal anyway. Its particularly good if you find yourself with land that lacks decent resources for good cities, as anything coastal becomes quite profitable then. Plus if you play on Immortal or Deity the AI cities grow so fast trade route value can get quite huge fast.

And most of all!
4. Golden Age wonders. Mausoleum and Taj. Why? I just don't understand this.. Golden ages are nice but is it really worth it pumping so many hammers in Taj just for a GA?
Or mausoleum.. How many GA do you actually get during a game? 3 at most, I presume. So mausoleum = Taj. Is there smth I just don't see?

Golden Ages are really useful, and longer ones are better. If you can manage to get 3 golden ages together somewhere around Education (3 Great People + Taj), then you should be able to get a tech and production boost big enough to shred several AIs once you get that military advantage your chasing.
Your maths is off by the way, if you get 3 golden ages then MoM is worth 1.5 normal golden ages by itself so is better than Taj . Firing off 4 GAs in a game is very reasonable if you include Taj, which is like 6 with MoM.

 

[iDagon]

By TGL, I mean Lighthouse. The Library I love. And yes, as I said, it seemed crazy strong when I saw it but it never amazed me after I built it. I usually play Fractal so I don't aim for oversea travel that early in the game. On Archipelageo i am sure it's much more impressive..

About the oracle, the free techs you can get are very beaker-light from what I saw (not like nationhood 3200+ from lib). And yeah, Oracle-ing MC is nice (for early great engeneer) but going to CoL I usually Go the writing path for the libraries..

And yeah, the math was kind of wrong but most of the time, I find using 2 GPs for a golden age is a waste; even if it's 12 turns long.. Could be wrong though..

 

[Habitus]

At low levels you Oracle Alphabet and get trading early, at higher levels you Oracle the best trading tech, trade for Alphabet and then get trading early

A large part of civ is snowballing (ie getting 1 advantage, to get to another advantage that lets you get to a third and so on). Orcale gets you a free tech to trade for techs you need but haven't researched yet, this lets you concentrate on later techs to get more benefits and get to things like Lib, Music, Economics first that all carry bonuses for being first.

 

[Ghpstage]

By TGL, I mean Lighthouse. The Library I love. And yes, as I said, it seemed crazy strong when I saw it but it never amazed me after I built it. I usually play Fractal so I don't aim for oversea travel that early in the game. On Archipelageo i am sure it's much more impressive..

You don't necessarily need to settle overseas to get overseas routes as AIs may be on a nearby island. For the domestic side, to get 3 overseas routes in every city on your main contient, all you need are 3 cities offshore. Even same continent AI cities provide excellent trade route commerce, with extra foreign trade from GLH, the 2 from a single route can be boosted to 6 for a coastal city. Archipelago isn't necessary.

About the oracle, the free techs you can get are very beaker-light fromwhat I saw (not like nationhood 3200+ from lib). And yeah, Oracle-ing MC is nice (for early great engeneer) but going to CoL I usually Go the writing path for the libraries..

You really can't judge what is 'beaker light' soley on the cost of a tech, earlier techs have to cost less or researching them would be impossible .
MC and Theology are actually very beaker intensive techs for their time, and CoL, Monarchy, Currency and some others are quite costly and gettinng them earlier can have great returns.
You need Writing to get CoL anyway, but teching to CoL through Writing takes a very long time, Oracle provides a convenient shortcut, and its one that can snowball a lot.

And yeah, the math was kind of wrong but most of the time, I find using 2 GPs for a golden age is a waste; even if it's 12 turns long.. Could be wrong though..

The amount you gain in and is considerable, but you also get an extra +100% on GPP and no anarchy for civic swaps during this time. They are very powerful when used well, maybe you should play around with some and find ways to work them into your game.

 

[ChanceDanger]

I get your points, but having just won my first monarch game on the back what essentially became a Mausoleum utilizing powerhouse, I feel like I should defend good ol' MoM. I was able to fire off 4 golden ages (Philosophical and HC building wonders while I built HAs), 3 consecutively right after MoM was built (including my Taj mahal that I had to delay while waiting out one of those damn GAs), which basically blew the lid off the game and I wasn't even doing a good job switching civics during the time. I was able to get a domination victory in the mid 1800s on a only slightly unbalanced large Hemisphere map (Those ones where one continent gets 50% of the land and the rest of the land was split up two continents and an archipelago), but even then I was impressed by how badly this was making all my previous efforts look.

It was actually sort of funny because I was looking at the game with the idea that I'd do specialists and pump out GPs the old fashioned way, but the +1 bonus to every coin and every hammer on every tile was simply too good to pass up. Heck, plains cottages became attractive to my eyes for the very first time. On one hand the Golden Ages may not seem like much, but in that game above about 20% (48 out of 270ish) of the turns in a GA, and more like the majority of the turns that put me in a winning position (getting the technology and building the armies which really just rolled).

I do not really care for The Oracle either, but then again if it's there and I have nothing better to do I guess I'll take it (not really all that big on the liberalism race either, but I always end up running for it because I want oxford and it's just sitting there waiting to be traded once the AIs get all bummed they didn't win the Lib race)

 

[Archon_Wing]

Taj Mahal's golden age does not increased the amount of GP required for a GA. Normally you need one more every time you start a golden age.

The other thing is that it comes at a time where many good civics become available, most notably Free Speech, Free Market, and Representation. You'll frequently have most of these available by the time you finish the Taj. Having marble is a good sign to go for it.

The oracle is really cheap, and Priesthood itself is extremely cheap. It's a wonder you can frequently get if you aim for it. The only problem here is if you want Meditation. But Priesthood leads up to monarchy anyways, which is very useful to have.

TGW is very situational. It's, of course crap on crowded Pangea/Terra starts and very good if you have tons of empty land (Tundra, grr....)

 

[aggri1]

I love the Great Wall. I play on huge maps and on marathon though, so barbs are numerous. Also, getting more great generals is nice, I like building promoted units.

 

[Archon_Wing]

I wonder if the Great Wall would be more useful if you are near Mansa. ;p

 

[ben-jammin]

There is no way to rank wonders definitively because different maps make different wonders better or worse. And certain wonders make each other better, which is viable with the right resources and/or an industrious leader.

I recently had great success on a small immortal map using the oracle to get metal casting which in turn allowed me to build the colossus. Had copper, had a financial civ, had many good coastal sites. Well...when coast squares gives you 2f4c, "good" coastal sites are easy to find. This isnt a strategy I normally would have pursued but the circumstances were right. Same game I managed the great lighthouse (seems sometimes the AI just doesnt build it at all), and the MoM. The commerce from golden ages was insane with 10 coastal cities giving 5 gold per coast square plus all the trade routes.

MoM obviously makes the Taj Mahal a bigger priority. Winning the GA from music for me makes the MoM something I will absolutely pursue if I feel i have a chance at it, which in turn makes the Taj Mahal a target as well.

TGLibrary has obvious synergy with pyramids (rep), parthenon, heroic epic (in the same city), philosophical civs in general.

On the other hand its pretty easy to make a list of wonders that suck. I see no possible scenario i nwhich id ever build temple of artemis, angkor wat, statue of zeus.

 

[Sian]

(including my Taj mahal that I had to delay while waiting out one of those damn GAs)

Golden Ages stack ...

 

[ben-jammin]

Golden Ages stack ...

I think you just blew his mind.

 

[Ghpstage]

On the other hand its pretty easy to make a list of wonders that suck. I see no possible scenario i nwhich id ever build temple of artemis, angkor wat, statue of zeus.

SoZ is very rarely useful, but the other two do deserve some credit.
Artemis gives 5GPP very early, and provides little benefits on the side including an extra 3 if you got Rep from the mids.
Ankor Wat makes Priests better than Engineer specialists, and gives 3 Priest slots. Its actually a pretty strong wonder, but its not for everyones playstyles.

 

[Little Faith]

The reason The Great Library is so popular is the sheer convienience factor.

Aesthetics is a tech you often go for at higher difficulty levels where tech trading matters much more as it is excellent trade bait and rarely researched by the AI. Litterature is a cheap tech that comes right after and is on the road to liberalism.
Also by the time Litterature is researched you are usually emerging from the initial expansion phase and into the "post-expansion crash recovery" phase. Being able to generate a bunch of GS'es at this point of the game is usually rather important if you want a stab at Liberalism, they're usually used to bulb Liberalism and Philosophy.

So there you have it. It's a Lib race thing, and arrives at a very convenient time.


As for The Great Lighthouse, it's all about coastal cities. If you're playing Pangea there's a good chance it is not that relevant. But if you are looking forward to a lot of coastal cities you would be a fool not to at least comtemplate it. Two trade routes from each newly founded city can go a long way financing your expansion.

 

[JammerUno]

1. It's useless. Unless you want an early GSpy, don't build it.

2. You don't get a 'free' tech, you get a return on investment. If you oracle something and then not do something with it, that return is lower, and it's not a good investment. So if you don't leverage the tech, don't use it.

3. TGL gives you 4 commerce extra for every coastal city. At least. That's good if you have many coastal cities.

4. MoM has the drawback of the AI targeting calendar early, so I rarely get it. The Taj, it's only 700 hammers, with a forge and marble, that's 312. You should easily get that many extra hammers from the GA, not to mention the GPP bonus, the commerce bonus, and the fact that you can switch civics. And it really helps with a lib>MT curi strategy, because you can go nat, taj, GP, lib and start the GA when you get MT, boost you curi output for 8 turns and make the most of it.

edit: AW is excellent if you have the 'mids.

 

[Um the Muse]

There is no way to rank wonders definitively because different maps make different wonders better or worse. And certain wonders make each other better, which is viable with the right resources and/or an industrious leader.

I recently had great success on a small immortal map using the oracle to get metal casting which in turn allowed me to build the colossus. Had copper, had a financial civ, had many good coastal sites. Well...when coast squares gives you 2f4c, "good" coastal sites are easy to find. This isnt a strategy I normally would have pursued but the circumstances were right. Same game I managed the great lighthouse (seems sometimes the AI just doesnt build it at all), and the MoM. The commerce from golden ages was insane with 10 coastal cities giving 5 gold per coast square plus all the trade routes.

MoM obviously makes the Taj Mahal a bigger priority. Winning the GA from music for me makes the MoM something I will absolutely pursue if I feel i have a chance at it, which in turn makes the Taj Mahal a target as well.

TGLibrary has obvious synergy with pyramids (rep), parthenon, heroic epic (in the same city), philosophical civs in general.

On the other hand its pretty easy to make a list of wonders that suck. I see no possible scenario i nwhich id ever build temple of artemis, angkor wat, statue of zeus.

Somehow, I never seem to get around to building the MoM, but it seems like it would be pretty decent. I do try to get the artist for a GA, though, so I definitely should try it sometime.

TGLib is, imho, not all that great, esp if you're running Caste. Even if you're not, though, I'd be pretty happy with any GP, and TGLib is mostly useful for keeping your bloodlines pure.

When you wrote "heroic epic," you meant National Epic, right?

Temple of Artemis and Angkor Wat have decent synergy, and make a priest economy viable. I don't usually go for it, but Obsolete has showcased it IIRC.

Statue of Zeus is a weird one. You get it not for its benefit, but to deny the AIs from getting it. If you ever fight against the guy who has it, you'll get WW much sooner. I still don't build it, but then I don't like offensive wars (current Noble's Club game notwithstanding ). I guess if you've already figured out your target, and you know that they're going to get it instead of you, you'd go for it?

Personally, there's a lot of wonders that I'd skip. The GLH is not one that I'd usually give up without a fight, though, as long as I have the techs. The bigger issue is where the tech is on my list than how many hammers it costs. Don't forget that it requires both masonry and sailing. It is an odd game where I need both techs early (ignoring the GLH).

 

[ChanceDanger]

I think you just blew his mind.

Man, I totally wasted 50 culture in that game.

 

[vranasm]

for non-spiritual leader you typically around 300 AD launch your first GA with GP (ideally from music ;-)) in which you get 3 GS from 3 cities.

Then you bulb yourself through philo (ok this one you should have bulbed before since otherwise you can't get those 3 GS's more like 2 only - the pac bonus is big big), paper, education. At then end of this first GA you switch to slavery and whip unis and OU.
then you selftech nat, gunpowder, lib, take lib->Mt, build TM and in the GA you whip your cuir army
then you go and own the world.

works everytime up to emperor (well except the part where you get those 3 GS's, I usually get only 2... but still it's 1->2 conversion and you got on the way some more beakers and hammers)

if you manage to get somewhere GM for trade mission after the first GA even better ;-) you can use 100% slider.

If you happen to have around 10 cities empire you will indeed feel that the GA is much better then to bulb something with the GP (especially when the GA can't bulb anything useful)

edit:
of course you can change your religion for the time of GA if you for example avoid state religion due too much hate around, but have spread in your pac cities
and in the TM then you can switch for Theocracy bonus