[Wonders] Tech OR Policy, but more specific

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by BenchBreaker, Mar 4, 2016.

  1. BenchBreaker

    BenchBreaker Warlord

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    Current system of 1 policy randomly unlocking several wonders is both confusing and unrealistic

    the requirement for number of policies unlocking wonders needs to be more specific

    ----------

    option 1: each wonder is unlocked by specific tech OR specific policy

    but considering during any one game you dont get to have all policies unlike tech so maybe a choice of 2 policies

    for example:

    Pyramids - Calendar OR Expertise(progress) OR Imperium(Authority)
    Statue of Zeus - Bronze working OR Justice(tradition) OR Dominance(Authority)
    Temple of Artemis - Construction OR Organisation(progress) OR Sovereignty(tradition)

    --------------

    option 2: wonders unlocked by number of policies in specific trees

    e.g.
    Stonehenge - Wheel or 1 Tradition (2 include opener)
    Great Library - Writing or 3 Progress
    Alhambra - Chivalry or 5 Authority
    Chichen Itza - Astronomy or 5 Piety

    the idea is to make later era wonders unlockable by earlier era policy trees

    ---------------

    option 3: wonders unlocked by the number of policies but each additional policy unlocks only 2 specific wonders

    ---------

    option 4: wonders from the same tech column are unlocked by number of policies, as it works currently, but you also require at least one tech from the same column or 3 techs from the previous column
     
  2. grmagne

    grmagne Warlord

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    I like your option # 1 the best. It would make it more interesting to choose social policies. Do you choose the social policies with the best immediate benefit or do you push towards the wonder that you really want (assuming you don't think you can tech to it in time).

    The most unfair thing about most of the proposals though is that it overpowers Poland in a big way. The 3/1 beta makes them hugely OP, these proposals nerf them a bit. Also, whoever builds the Oracle will likely get a 2nd wonder as well.
     
  3. notque

    notque Artificially Intelligent

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    Ultimately I think the way it currently works before the patch makes more sense than any of the proposed options, and is more straight forward to understand.

    Religion has a path. Culture has a path. Technology has a path. Combining them serves to just complicate things.

    I do respect and admire the intentions with the change, I just don't feel the value outweighs the negatives. I also may be very much in the minority.
     
  4. Daya

    Daya Chieftain

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    As an advocat of the AND-System (#policies + tech), i feel like youre proposed ideas would:
    a) Make things pretty complicated (special requirements for every wonder) and therefore confusing
    b) Restrict the choices/freedom when going culture-heavy (since specific policies or trees would be needed).

    However in addition to an AND system I could definitly see new wonders added to policy trees (e.g. having one at the opener and another one at the finisher). These additional wonders could be kind of a "dump place" for currently unused mechanics (if there are any in current iterations of cbp)
    In my opinion there currently are not enough wonders to tie any more to distinct policy trees/policies or other specific restrictions
     
  5. Tomice

    Tomice Passionate Smart-Ass

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    Maybe the number of needed policies was simply too low?

    The current number obviously caused most wonders to be unlocked by policies, not technologies - It made tech unlocks obsolete. Increasing the number of policies might solve all the issues.

    Ideally, the tech leaders should still have an excellent chance to unlock wonders first. The culture unlock should be an alternative for those cases when a player is culture leader but relatively low on techs.

    The wonders where also distributed suboptimally among policy numbers. Some unlocked 5wonders, others none. Ideally, a policy should always unlock the next 2 wonders.
     
  6. BenchBreaker

    BenchBreaker Warlord

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    some options are not complicated to understand at all, like option 1, it will just say in the policy description that it unlocks certain wonder

    e.g.

    Expertise
    +15% Production towards buildings. Tile improvement construction rate increased by 25%.
    Unlocks Pyramids

    I agree and it's because all wonders on the same tech column are considered 'equal' therefore are all unlocked by the same number of policies, i dont think it's a good idea though, not everything has to be the same, even if they are on the same tech column and cost the same, some could be unlocked with 1 less policy whilst others require 1 more policy, it will make certain wonders favour culture whilst others favour science, the key is to get the balance correct
     
  7. Legen

    Legen King

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    I think this is the case, and also the following:

    - the finisher of a social policy tree seems to count as an extra policy, so spending 6 policies on a tree is worth 7 for unlocking wonders.
    - sources of free policies (Oracle, Poland's UA, ideology wonders, World's Fair) allow you to unlock faster, even if you didn't generate culture for that.

    Since it was the first iteration, it was expected to see numbers a bit off. We may only need to calibrate it.
     
  8. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    So your response to it is suggesting 4 other systems that are even more confusing :D.
    On a more serious note, the current system works. I however personally prefer the old one over the current one, Policies are already powerful enough without letting you completely neglect science and still get wonders.
     
  9. BenchBreaker

    BenchBreaker Warlord

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    Not every option is confusing, some will be very straight forward and explicit

    e.g. for option 1

    In addition to its existing benefits, the policy description will say: UNLOCKS XXX WONDER
     
  10. grmagne

    grmagne Warlord

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    A low-tech, high SP civ that builds all the wonders is just begging to be invaded by a high-tech nation, though.
     
  11. Senteliks

    Senteliks Warlord

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    I actually appreciate new approach because old way leaves bad taste in my mouth. Reason for that, is every time I start a new game, I do same thing, play same way, opener is more or less same, I rarely have any reason not to play the way I am used to, in nutshell it's painfully linear.

    Also beside that, as cultural player I always had to make a compromise and make some unreasonable decisions, this way though, players persuading culture can focus on culture, players focused on science can focus on science, however this new approach needs polish without making it more complex. What OP wrote for example one , is not really confusing:


    Edit: Scratch this, gazebo says it's not possible. Actually turns out I misunderstood what OP, wanted here. I though he wanted AND and OR together

    Pyramid - > You need to have unlocked Calendar and one of two specific polices (Progress or Authority).


    As for his second example, I don't agree with it because first one seems better to me but it's not necessarily bad. Third example is completely absurd.
     
  12. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    This is not permitted by the DLL as it stands, and the AI would have to be extensively trained to seek out policies because of wonders (so not going to happen).

    There are 3 ideology-specific wonders, 9 policy-branch-specific wonders, 3 coastal-only wonders, 1 terrain-specific wonder, 3 religion-only wonders, and 5 project-specific wonders. That fees like more than enough 'hard-locked' wonders to me, truth be told.

    Again, not supported by code, and AI training makes this a no-go.

    This makes my brain hurt.


    In the upcoming version, the system is shifting to an AND model, instead of an OR model. It was my second choice, and the first choice (OR) was too punishing for tech players. So specific tech + # policies it is. This is AI-friendly, simple, and will be clearly indicated in your city/tech tree (so you'll know how many policies you need, and how many you have).

    G
     
  13. Wodhann

    Wodhann South American Norse God

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    I wonder if it's possible to get pop-ups saying that a certain wonder was unlocked by policy?
     
  14. notque

    notque Artificially Intelligent

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    Seems like a reasonable iteration from where we are in the current beta.
     
  15. BenchBreaker

    BenchBreaker Warlord

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    The AND model would reduce choice between science and culture again

    I dont see why option 3 is not supported by code, all it said was to changes the numbers from

    Spoiler :
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '25' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_BLETCHLEY_PARK'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '24' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_PENTAGON'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '20' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_BROADWAY'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '19' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_PRORA'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '19' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_EMPIRE_STATE_BUILDING'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '19' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_STATUE_OF_LIBERTY'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '19' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_MOTHERLAND_STATUE'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '20' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_CRISTO_REDENTOR'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '15' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_NEUSCHWANSTEIN'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '15' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_EIFFEL_TOWER'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '15' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_LOUVRE'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '14' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_SLATER_MILL'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '12' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_RED_FORT'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '12' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_SISTINE_CHAPEL'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '12' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_TAJ_MAHAL'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '11' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_LEANING_TOWER'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '11' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_GLOBE_THEATER'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '11' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_CHICHEN_ITZA'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '11' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_HIMEJI_CASTLE'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '9' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_NOTRE_DAME'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '8' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_MACHU_PICHU'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '8' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_ALHAMBRA'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '9' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_BOROBUDUR'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '8' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_HAGIA_SOPHIA'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '6' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_ANGKOR_WAT'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '6' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_GREAT_WALL'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '6' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_ORACLE'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '6' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_COLOSSUS'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '5' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_GREAT_LIGHTHOUSE'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '5' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_GREAT_LIBRARY'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '3' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_PETRA'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '3' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_TEMPLE_ARTEMIS'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '3' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_MAUSOLEUM_HALICARNASSUS
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '3' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_STATUE_ZEUS'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '3' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_PYRAMID'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '3' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_STONEHENGE'


    i.e. certain 'special' number of policies unlocking several wonders to something like:

    Spoiler :
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '25' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_BLETCHLEY_PARK'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '24' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_PENTAGON'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '23' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_BROADWAY'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '22' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_PRORA'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '21' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_EMPIRE_STATE_BUILDING'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '20' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_STATUE_OF_LIBERTY'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '20' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_MOTHERLAND_STATUE'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '19' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_CRISTO_REDENTOR'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '18' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_NEUSCHWANSTEIN'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '17' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_EIFFEL_TOWER'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '16' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_LOUVRE'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '15' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_SLATER_MILL'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '14' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_RED_FORT'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '13' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_SISTINE_CHAPEL'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '12' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_TAJ_MAHAL'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '11' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_LEANING_TOWER'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '11' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_GLOBE_THEATER'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '10' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_CHICHEN_ITZA'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '10' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_HIMEJI_CASTLE'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '9' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_NOTRE_DAME'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '9' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_MACHU_PICHU'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '8' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_ALHAMBRA'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '8' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_BOROBUDUR'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '7' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_HAGIA_SOPHIA'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '7' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_ANGKOR_WAT'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '6' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_GREAT_WALL'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '6' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_ORACLE'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '5' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_COLOSSUS'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '5' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_GREAT_LIGHTHOUSE'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '4' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_GREAT_LIBRARY'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '4' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_PETRA'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '3' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_TEMPLE_ARTEMIS'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '3' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_MAUSOLEUM_HALICARNASSUS
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '2' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_STATUE_ZEUS'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '2' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_PYRAMID'
    UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '1' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_STONEHENGE'


    i.e. between wonders in the same tech column, some are unlocked with fewer policies whilst other requires more. which ones favor culture will have to be decided although thematically it should be more culture oriented wonders.
     
  16. dylansan

    dylansan Warlord

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    I've been away for a while. Can someone give me a rundown of why wonders are tied to policies at all? What was wrong with just having them unlock with techs?
     
  17. grmagne

    grmagne Warlord

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    I think it was because tech leaders were hoarding most of the wonders while a high-culture mid-tech civ was hardly getting any. I'd have preferred to stick with the OR system from the 3/1 beta with some balance tweaks (i.e. increase the number of social policies), but I'll try the AND system in the next beta with an open mind to see how it plays out.
     
  18. grmagne

    grmagne Warlord

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  19. Hakan-i Cihan

    Hakan-i Cihan Emperor

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    Not necessarily. If there is some variation in the required number of policies it could balance it a bit out. For example, considering wonders on same technology column, if scientific wonders requires a bit more policies, while the cultural wonders would require a bit less policies it could work. Because now the cultural leaders will probably build the scientific wonder, while the scientific leader will most probably build the cultural wonder. But I don't know whether this would bring to much complexity...
     
  20. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    That's actually the plan, somewhat. Slight variability on wonders based on general theme.

    G
     

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