Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Wojciech_R, Jan 7, 2016.
It's easily one of the worst. The bonus is pretty small.
I never build Ankor Wat
I think it just comes at a time when if I want to try for a wonder there are others that are much more beneficial.
well the Temple of Artemis is THE best wonder in the game BUILD IT OR SUFFER DEFEAT.
it comes at a time when a lot of really good important buildings become available so I build them than comes Sistine Chapel, Leaning Tower and other good wonders. also its when I hit the mid-game happiness wall so I construct happiness buildings as well.
edit: one exception I MUST build it as Russia I feel like
(I play on emporer)
Stonehenge: never really sure why I don't bulid it, because it is a good wonder wonder but I always seem to go Great library, oracle and never have time to bulid it
Taj Mahal: sort of the same reason as Stonehenge I either build Uffizi or porcelain tower depending on what victory type I'm going for.
Himeji Castle: Although I'm usually a defensive civ player I never seem to build it, and I'm puzzled myself why I don't build it.
i absolutely never build angkor wat, even when i have the opportunity to
i would build alhambra more but it is so highly prioritized by the AI that it becomes nearly impossible to get at higher difficulties, in my experience anyway
i almost never go honor and thus never end up with the possibility of building the statue of zeus; a shame really, and something i should maybe correct
for similar reasons i never build the louvre
himeji castle and red fort don't seem important enough to my playstyle for the hammer investments, especially at the point in the game they become available (i'm either occupied with other wonders or amassing science/military)
i also find the parthenon skippable; if i'm building wonders at that stage it doesn't take priority, and its effects get eclipsed rather quickly when you get your guilds up
The higher the difficulty you go, the harder it is to build early game wonders.
Off the top of my head, the red fort and the thing that makes it easier for you to acquire tiles are pretty bad. I tend to not build a lot of the culture wonders very often.
A lot of the super late game wonders seem really bad, but if you're ahead and going for a culture victory, have world congress policies in place that benefit wonders (like +culture for wonders), have religious policies in place that benefit wonders (like +faith), and a hotel in your capital, they can really provide some nice tourism boosts, even if you never use the wonder itself. That can be a reason to get things like the great firewall or the pentagon.
Count me in the never build Angkor Wat category. By the time I could build it, if available, my gpt is usually pretty good so I can buy any tiles I might need anyway and so the production is better for other things...also my capital is often beyond the point where I can buy a tile. Great generals are much more useful.
Of course I won't build great lighthouse in land games, but if I realize I'm on an island early enough I'll beeline for it even though I usually play immortal.
Since I rarely am interested in anything but domination victories I'll usually ignore Parthenon, unless nobody's built it and a bunch of city states have asked me to build it, then it can be worth while.
I also skip most of the ones like globe theater since the great person is not really free (unless I desperately need a particular great person).
The ones I probably never build even when given the situation are:
Statue of Zeus, Borobudur, Angkor Wat, Great Wall, Terracotta Army, Himeji Castle, Red Fort, Taj Mahal, Bradenburg Gate, Great Firewall, Pentagon, CN Tower.
Never built the Terracotta Army, like.. ever
Rarely Stonehenge and the Great Lighthouse..
That's the problem with this question, I don't even think about the ones I don't build much, I also never build terracotta army, either I don't have enough military units to make it worth while or the gpt hit is way too much at the stage where it's buildable. I do keep an eye on who builds it though, if it's a next door neighbor I'll be sure and check out if they are about to send an army my way.
Great lighthouse though, if you don't play water oriented games is useless, but I think a lot of people underrate it, it's very handy for chasing down bad guys or escaping them and if Elizabeth is in the game it gives you a chance against her (when playing Elizabeth I like to get it mainly to keep others from having it). The early extra eye site is useful in some games--I'll park boats in likely locations to meet other players (trading partners) that otherwise wouldn't be found until caravels are available; also having the extra site is handy once your ranged boats get their extra range upgrade so they can see what they're shooting at without needing another unit. It can be nice in combo with exploration too having carvels with extra site upgrade plust GL plus explore and you can find other civs fast and maybe get to found the world congress.
Ones I (almost) never build
Angkor Wat (too little effect, to busy building universities)
Great Wall (worth getting to stop an opponent from getting it if I'm trying early conquest, but rarely in the right tech path)
Red Fort (too little effect, too much to build)
Terracotta (gpt more limiting than production for early military, especially compared to cost of wonder)
Most of the rest ether have some utility in certain circumstances OR are late game and get spammed even though they might not have much effect (Pentagon, Cristo)
[Great Firewall is actually worthwhile if I am cultural, to deny it to someone else..plus additional wonder, CN tower, Hubble are actually worth it for speeding the game]
Thing is with Angkor Wat it comes at Education, so you have to delay a university to get it.
Also there are far far better Wonders just over the horizon. You are better focusing on that university so you can get to either the Sistine Chapel, Leaning Tower or Forbidden City.
Those wonders will help you win a game, not Ankor Wat.
Plus the AI loves building it too...
It would be worthwhile if it was "25% cost for getting tiles with gold/culture" instead of "-25% cost"
(the problem is with its weird interaction with the Krepost/ America's UA which I think is why they didn't make it worthwhile)
In my mind a better option would be to build the Oracle and take the Tradition opener. You'll get a better outcome than with Ankor Wat. Although the combination of America or Russia + Ankor Wat + Tradition Opener is interesting. I've never tried it but it certainly would be fun for fast border spread.
Really don't get the antipathy and disdain for Angkor Wat.
You guys have never had that aluminum, oil, uranium, or coal resource you are just waiting for your city's borders to expand to?
You've never needed to plant a late game city somewhere so you could get oil, and said to yourself "Well if I put it here it would sorta be an ok city, but it's going to be a long, long time before I get my oil, since I wouldn't be able to buy that tile if I put it here. Hmmmm"
Guess it depends on why you play the game. I'd really rather build my gigantic cities and spam wonders than conquer the world directly.
Plus Angkor Wat has great engineer points. My favorite kind of game is one where I can snag a couple of the early wonders that give them. Even with the counter advancing I sometimes get in the situation where I get a continuous stream of great engineers, which I spend on more and more wonders (stressing the ones that give great engineer points). If you are careful with the specialists you can really get ridiculous with the the whole thing.
Of course I would never play on higher difficulties. The attraction of this game to me is what I can build. Going up to an arbitrary higher difficulty and losing the ability to build any wonders doesn't interest me at all. I mean I've watched Let's Play videos: "Wonders are the devil. Don't build wonders. They are a waste of two or three hammers. Fill out Tradition, then go Rationalism. If you want a wonder, hope it was built by a neighboring Civ, then conquer it like Sid intended. There is nothing but science. Science and beakers are everything. Don't waste time, get two cities out, then build National College. Blah, blah, blah."
I don't want to play your game. They actually look boring and pretty repetitive to me.
You know... I don't question the conventional wisdom. It's pretty obvious that most of the posters here are pretty smart, and know the game in depth.
But after my measly (1000 hours or so?) amount of playtime with Civ 5... you know I'm not really sure I LIKE the game, or can definitively say it is well designed. It's definitely got addictive game play from the "One more click" viewpoint, but well designed? Not so sure.
I still see some people say Civ 4 was a better game. To tell the truth if it weren't for the late game slowdowns (Civ 5 is a lot less likely to have them for a number of reasons), and the stacks of doom (which I blame for the slowdowns in the end), I'd still be playing Fall from Heaven.
So I'm starting to think the Civ 5 naysayers had a point. You could definitely win that game (Fall from Heaven mod) a variety of ways, without being the tech leader.
No, that's what GG's are for.
No. Oil is only needed for domination. If you're dominating things, you already have a sizable chunk of the map, and therefore oil. If you are forced to plant a city in the industrial or modern era, it will never pay for itself tech and culture wise, so whether or not it's an "okay" city or not is irrelevant. Plant it right on the oil if that's what you are planting it for.
Yeah, that works on low difficulty. Not so much on high difficulty where wonders get way more rare and you have to start building military for defense.
Except using GE's costs you GS's, which is pretty much universally bad. The GS will help you finish the game faster, the GE only gets you shiny things, and delays the spawn of your next GS. Optimal play involves getting as few GE's as possible to maximize the amount of GS's you spawn.
Well, if that's the case, then you need to understand that there's a difference between prince and deity. If you want to win on prince, you just need to hit the "next turn" button about 400 times. That doesn't fly on difficulty levels higher than that, and you actually have to make choices. Those choices often don't include wonders.
Some of us think the same way about your game. Build wonders, build wonders, build wonders, build wonders. How is that not boring and repetitive? It's much more exciting to take those wonders by force.
I should clarify, I see absolutely nothing wrong with playing the game on Prince or below and wonder whoring your way to victory. It's your game, I'm not here to tell you how to play it. But there's 2 schools of though with the game - either you play to build a giant civilization, or you play to win as fast as possible on as high a difficulty as possible. You said yourself that you don't understand the hate for Angkor Wat, so I'm just explaining to you from the latter point of view why it's viewed as a bad wonder. The opportunity cost vs value is far too low. In things like Acken's mod where it also gives you a free university, then it's worth trying for if you have a high production city and you get to Education in good time. Otherwise, it simply delays your game and costs you too much.
There is fun in building every wonder in the game, sure. But there's also people out there who believe that you can't call something a "game" unless you have a chance to lose.
Yeah, your point about the wonders is valid.
But in the end I have a city of wonders. And my lands look terrific.
Great wall is an offensive wonder because when you sneak attack a city and capture it rapidly your gain can't be rolled back and you can pick off any remaining defenders who get trapped in your territory and can't retreat.
You can also dedicate your entire force to attacking and leave few/no units defending since it buys you time to regroup if attacked.
Yep, and that same mentality kept me occupied for the first few hundred hours of Civ 5 too.
After that, I wanted to actually improve my playing, and the best way to do that was to force myself to play better via high difficulties. Now the prince level sandbox games are REALLY fun for me
I think people would value Angkor Wat more if they played more with Liberty and less with Tradition. The tile acquiring bonus from Tradition is huge, and when I play Liberty, I frequently find myself spending a lot of gold on buying tiles, so actually I think Angkor Wat can be pretty useful. But then again, I play with a mod that both adds extra bonus to Angkor Wat (free Pagoda in city) as well as makes Liberty and wide gameplay in general more viable, so I fully understand why people don't use it much in normal game. I also use WHoward's mod that decouples great engineers, scientists and merchants, which makes GE (and GM) points much more worthwhile.
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