Wood/Jungle capitals

[FaceUnderMask]

Hey guys/girls.

I haven't played much since times before G&K, but recently I play with my friends quite often on weekends.

Usually I'm a warmonger/land developer type, but this time I got France and decided to go for culture/wonderbuilding. Trouble is, I got bad terrain this time. It was all forests on riverside, just south of tundra.

My gambit:
Monument
Scout
Shrine
Worker
Tradition -> Aristocracy
Second pantheon -> Monument to the gods

At that point I've realised how foolish this was.
Surrounded by forest means low on food.
Low on food means low on population.
Low on population means you can't shift everyone from food to hammers.
I've been stuck with 25-29 turns to build any ancient era wonder.

At that very time my friend, while getting somewhat of a mediocre start at the plains riverside, with marble, with liberty, managed to build a plenty of early wonders - GL, mausoleus, pyramids some time later, while another friend with another mediocre start managed to rush HG.

So, bottom line - start in woods/jungle looks like a disaster to me right now.
I'd like you to point me at my mistakes, and tell me how it's done.
I've tried to go for lumbermills, but if you are low on population then you won't make use of it anyway. Another thing is that any forest resourse tiles take much longer to improve since you have to chop forest. If you need production badly, then why not, but what if you need food or happiness just as much badly?

Should have I foregone early religion?
Probably Monument->Scout->Granary->Worker,
or even Monument->Scout->Worker->Granary,
or maybe Monument->Worker->Granary?
Remove forest at riverside and build farms as quickly as possible?

How you would've done in my stead?
Sadly, can't retrieve a screenshot. So consider the following start condition:
Capital, riverside, not a hill
Wheat
Hill, unforested
1 Silk (forested)
1 Spice
anything else is forest, 3 of which is forested hills.
Emperor difficulty.
Average barb activity.

p.s. happy new year eve.
p.s. sorry for grammar mistakes

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

You can chop down the forest for early production.

Try to get out a worker fast and get mining.

Prechop the Forests (leving one turn left on each chop) to save these hammers on the wonder you want.

Then you start your wonder move your worker to the prechoped Forests and chop them down for hammers and you will get your wonder out in maybe 10 turns or so.

Other things to speed it up.

-Settle on a hill for one extra hammer.

-Settle on a luxery resource which will allow you to get it right away then you get the tech which you should sell.
Also you useally get more gold if you settle a city on a lux resoure because city center give extra gold if you do.

 

[ravenmagus]

I would have gotten mining up and started chopping those trees. It would have given a good production boost to your intended early wonders.

What is underneath your forest? If its grasslands then I think you actually have a decent area once you get the trees gone. If plains then it's mediocre but at least you can get farms down. Put mines on the hills and farms everywhere else.

Also move your capital onto a hill at the start, if you can.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

On Jungle

Its bad terrain to start with so you should try to move your settler away from it.
However later on Jungle can become one of the best tiles with patheon that gives one Culture, University and tradingpost making it a 2 2 2 1 which is a very strong tile so try to keep and get jungle but dont start in it

 

[FaceUnderMask]

What is underneath your forest? If its grasslands then I think you actually have a decent area once you get the trees gone. If plains then it's mediocre but at least you can get farms down. Put mines on the hills and farms everywhere else.

Can't be sure, sorry. My friend, who was a host, are off to party. Consider plains at riverside.


About everything else, too lazy to quote:

1) I am aware of production bonus and prechopping. I'm having difficulty with prioritizing build queue (when to get worker, granary) and tile upgrading (less of a problem, since there isn't that many tiles to upgrade).
2) I haven't focused on that but - what early wonders do I actually need for culture play? Probably I should've rushed HG with prechop, and then parthenon?
3) Jungle is a follow-up. I know of it's advantages, but when you suddenly start surrounded by jungle for 3 tiles range its just a hands-down for me.
4) Actually, thanks for advice on moving the settler on lux resource/hill, could make a difference in my next plays.

Added:
I guess I'll try celts in singleplayer, maybe learn a thing or two.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Great libary is probably the best early wonder you can get if you going for culture because of the theaming bonus.
Every early wonder that gives alot of culture per turn is good to because that will give alot of tourism with hotel and Airport.
Stonehenge can be great with peity becase one of the reformation belives give you 2 tourism for each building that is purcased with faith so get a religion grabb 2 Buildings as followers belif and reform it.

 

[ravenmagus]

About everything else, too lazy to quote:

1) I am aware of production bonus and prechopping. I'm having difficulty with prioritizing build queue (when to get worker, granary) and tile upgrading (less of a problem, since there isn't that many tiles to upgrade).
2) I haven't focused on that but - what early wonders do I actually need for culture play? Probably I should've rushed HG with prechop, and then parthenon?
3) Jungle is a follow-up. I know of it's advantages, but when you suddenly start surrounded by jungle for 3 tiles range its just a hands-down for me.
4) Actually, thanks for advice on moving the settler on lux resource/hill, could make a difference in my next plays.

Added:
I guess I'll try celts in singleplayer, maybe learn a thing or two.

1) You probably want that worker sooner with all that forest around. If there is a CS near you you can steal a worker (or even better, two) from them and build the granary. For tile upgrades I would build farms everywhere you can and then mines on the hills. Lumber mills I save for cities that need the forest as their only production (no hills)

2) Parthenon is good, of course. Oracle is very good too - has a good culture bonus (important for airports/hotels) and helps you get through social policies faster when you really want to finish out a second non-Rationalism tree (Aesthetics; you still want the first two policies in Rationalism too because they're pretty op). After that the wonders you want are all midgame: Pisa, Louvre, Uffizi, Globe Theatre; then later, Eiffel Tower, Broadway, Sydney Opera House and CN Tower. The key to getting the later ones is growth and science, not production.

3) Jungle really sucks, in theory the science bonus is good but it doesn't really make up for what you miss out on via growth, since science is heavily based on population. In addition it has poor production and takes forever to improve. Your best bet is to either move out of the jungle with your capital or steal plenty of workers from a nearby CS.

4) Settling on a lux is alright, you do miss out on the improvement bonus which is important if you are looking to get anything that specifically needs Quarries, Camps, or Plantations. You also usually don't need the happiness that fast and (depending on difficulty) the AI may not even have gold that early to trade for it. Settling on Marble is notable though as you get the 15% wonder bonus immediately without having to research Masonry.

 

[joshua43214]

If you start in the jungle, re-roll
seriously, just move your settler elsewhere. Even settling on T6 is better than being in the middle of a bunch of jungle that has nothing but crappy plains under it. If you don't want to hunt up a better spot, just settle on a hill even if it is a lux, and give up the idea of CV (you need hammer for CV).

A woodland start can be awesome. Steal a worker right away, or hard build it right away. Monument, scout + tradition is very bad for forest start (debatable under any circumstance imo). Go scout, worker, scout or some such, but get that worker out right away and chop all the early wonders. get extra workers too, the more the better

 

[tommynt]

"prechoping" sounds like the most dumb and useless idea i have ever heard

there should be allways something else to do for your worker as moving them in and out of woods - or u r doing it very very wrong

kindergardenmath will tell u that 2 food is > 15% production - so go never ever aristrocracy but monarchy 1.

also early game doesnt depend on thre vc u go for later AT ALL - its 100% about getting your economy rolling

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Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

"prechoping" sounds like the most dumb and useless idea i have ever heard

there should be allways something else to do for your worker as moving them in and out of woods - or u r doing it very very wrong

kindergardenmath will tell u that 2 food is > 15% production - so go never ever aristrocracy but monarchy 1.

also early game doesnt depend on thre vc u go for later AT ALL - its 100% about getting your economy rolling

You meen landed elite?
Anyway to get that policy you need atleast three picks while aristocracy need only two picks.
Prechoping is probably the fastest way to get a Wonder and the quicker you can get it the better chance you have to get it and faster you get the benifint of having the Wonder.

 

[Cadfan17]

The problem with prechopping is that hammers overflow, so you have to seriously consider if you would be better off just chopping all the way to accelerate whatever else you were building before the wonder so that you can unlock or otherwise start the wonder earlier.

 

[Antarion]

what tommy tried to say is pre chopping is a totally dumb idea except you are persia in a GA or u already have built roads in the woods, which will never be the case under normal circumstances in the early game.