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Woodsman III or Guerilla III?

Sephlock

Warlord
Joined
Feb 21, 2005
Messages
212
The defensive aspects of the abilities in the title are obvious, but which is better for attacking cities?

It seems like the 50% withdrawal chance from Guerilla III gets cut WAY down in practice, at least as far as attacking cities is concerned*, and I read somewhere on these very forums that if the defenders have first strike and the attackers have first strike, the defender gets the FIRST first strike** ... so against archer pumping enemies, the first strikes don't really help...

It seems like in the end, the Woodsman III healing effect really tips the scales against Guerilla III.

Thoughts? Comments? Escargot?

Does anyone even bother getting these promotions?

*I assume that in the field, at least, the 50% chance to retreat actually works out to be something close to 50%?

**if this is false, please let me know... likewise, if you can confirm this, please chime in
 
That would depend, is the city on a hill?

Woodsman III is pretty awesome, IMO, at least in early game. Gives you a medic who also defends and attacks in forests.
 
as far as I know, it's calculated off the % chance for the unit to die.

So if the unit has a 60% chance to win the fight and has a 50% chance to withdrawl it would be 60% chance to win, 20% to withdrawl, and 20% to die.
 
Would you go so far as to get either of the titular promotions before city raider promotions for swordsmen (or, more realistically, Gallic Warriors)? Cuz frankly, its not very likely, that you'll be able to get the city raider promotions PLUS Woodsman III or Guerilla III, even with a charismatic leader.
 
I'd probably get 1 unit with woodsman III in my stack if I didn't already have a medic. I'd only build Guerilla III units if I'm expecting to have to assult a difficult hill tile.
 
How does withdrawal get calculated? Just throwing a question out there.
It ends up working out like this:
You have a 50% withdrawal chance, but this only applies if you have lost the fight. Let's say you have a 50% chance of winning the fight. In this case, your chance of winning will be 50%, withdrawal 25% (50% of the "losing" outcomes), and losing 25% (the other 50% of the "losing" outcomes).
 
Woodsman III is awesome, its even useful lategame for those units that upgrade to Machine Gun. Woodsman III Machine Gun on a hill with forest / jungle, and maybe even a fort is a pretty hard nut to crack with conventional units.
 
It ends up working out like this:
You have a 50% withdrawal chance, but this only applies if you have lost the fight. Let's say you have a 50% chance of winning the fight. In this case, your chance of winning will be 50%, withdrawal 25% (50% of the "losing" outcomes), and losing 25% (the other 50% of the "losing" outcomes).

Ah, I see, I understand now.
 
Woodsman III sounds great in theory, but when you're attacking something thats in a forest, all it actually does, is negate their defensive bonus. And then lets say you're woodman III axeman is attacking a basic combat I axeman into a forest, you will still lose the large majority of the time.

This is why I still detest the "forest defensive bonus". To make woodsman III a proper bonus, it needs to be +100% attacking into forests, which when you take away the defenders 50% defensive bonus, gives a true +50% bonus fighting in forests.

I mean you're guy is supposed to be (with woodsman III in game terms), an absolute expert at forest/jungle combat, a "First Blood Rambo" type. But in the game, if you're woodsman III rambo has an axe, and someone with no promotions has an axe( even though he was born in the city, has never seen a wood in his life or held and axe for that matter) AND he happens to be standing in a forest ( probably completely lost and scared out of his wits), then it's 50/50 combat if Rambo attacks him......:lol:

Complete and utter loony tunes..............

And on that note....That's allll Folks!! ;)
 
Woodsman III sounds great in theory, but when you're attacking something thats in a forest, all it actually does, is negate their defensive bonus. And then lets say you're woodman III axeman is attacking a basic combat I axeman into a forest, you will still lose the large majority of the time.

This is why I still detest the "forest defensive bonus". To make woodsman III a proper bonus, it needs to be +100% attacking into forests, which when you take away the defenders 50% defensive bonus, gives a true +50% bonus fighting in forests.

I mean you're guy is supposed to be (with woodsman III in game terms), an absolute expert at forest/jungle combat, a "First Blood Rambo" type. But in the game, if you're woodsman III rambo has an axe, and someone with no promotions has an axe( even though he was born in the city, has never seen a wood in his life or held and axe for that matter) AND he happens to be standing in a forest ( probably completely lost and scared out of his wits), then it's 50/50 combat if Rambo attacks him......:lol:

Complete and utter loony tunes..............

And on that note....That's allll Folks!! ;)

Hmmm, You are totally and utterly right. Change Woodsman III to +100% Attacking forests NOW!!!! :goodjob:
 
I disagree. It should always be a bonus to be defending in a forest, never a penalty. Defending a hill isn't always a bonus against a particularly clever foe (read up on Ma Su and the Battle of Jieting). And remember that Rambo was almost always defending. :p

Plus, the other benefits of Woodsman III are better.
 
Would you go so far as to get either of the titular promotions before city raider promotions for swordsmen (or, more realistically, Gallic Warriors)? Cuz frankly, its not very likely, that you'll be able to get the city raider promotions PLUS Woodsman III or Guerilla III, even with a charismatic leader.

Actually i had two Units with Woodsman 3 and CR 3, no charismatic leader and no General attached to them. And those guys are awesome!
 
I just discovered woodsman 3 from these forums, i never went far enough down that promotion path normally lol. I have to say i think its cool, it gives your units a massive boost in the right conditions. Im going to have to start trying it in the early ages since i only used it in my last game in teh gunpowder age.
 
Combat I / Medic I / Woodsmen III Infantry can be very impressive, especially on a Rainforest map. Even when they're outside of the jungle, they still serve as amazing stack medics. In the jungle, they're nearly unkillable.

(Promoted up from Jaguars. See, Monty can be good for something!)
 
You really only need one Woodsman III. More than that and you're fairly redundant. There simply aren't enough forests around in the late game to make it worthwhile for the defense and attack, and the healing doesn't stack. The first strikes are nice, but it takes three promotions to get them--consider that taking Drill III is going to give you strictly more and it's just not as appealing. But one? Oh, yes, definitely make one... They're very good.

The rest? Make them Guerilla. Hills don't go away!
 
It is a tough call: +2 first strikes and additional healing vs. 50% withdrawal.

But you should really toss Combat III into the discussion as well, since that is (usually) the opportunity cost of getting either Woodsman III or Guerilla III.

Since, all things being equal, your SoD is going to park in hills/woods, both Woodsman III and Guerilla III have one drawback: they increase the likelihood that your precious City Raider III unit will chosen as a defender should the defender sally forth to attack your SoD.

Woodsman III helps negate the first strikes of the likely city defenders which is something Woodsy units (ie melee) typically have a hard time doing. This advantage also applies in defense (mitigating the problem noted above). Numerical analysis of how much of an advantage 2 first strikes can be is too situationally dependent to be feasible.

Guerilla III has the advantage that cities can be built on hills, so that aspect of the promotion is not wasted. Note that this will not negate the Archer/Longbow bonus for being in hills. City Raider III units are precious. A "get out of death free" card is nothing to sneeze at. Attach a GG and you can get an 80% withdrawal on a melee unit. . . :evil:

Combat III is always good. Always. Leads to Combat IV and March. Each step on the way contributes to the units efectiveness (as opposed to the Woodsman/Guerilla I-II which do nothing to help the units main role.

See spoiler for defense/open field comparisons:
Spoiler :
The base Str of a Maceman with Combat III is 10.4 not 8. A Woodman III Maceman in a forest defends at 16 [8 + (8*50% (woods))+(8*50% (W III))]. A Combat III Maceman defending in a forest defends at 14.4 [10.4 + (8*50% (woods))] W III Maceman also has the two first strikes which are huge on defence (except against mounted units).

In the open field, the C III Macemen will be more survivable, but much more likely to be the chosen defender.

A Guerilla III Maceman on a hill defends at 14 [8 + (8*25% (hills))+(8*50% (Gu III))]. A Combat III Maceman defending on hill defends at 12.4 [10.4 + (8*25% (hills))] a more distinct advantage.

In the open field, the C III Macemen will still be more survivable, and still much more likely to be the chosen defender.
But the crux of the matter: Attacking cities.

Assume a longbow defender with CG III: they get +75% defense, +10% vs Melee, +25% for being in a city. That is a total modifier of +110%.
All of our CR III troops have (unless they also have Cover) +75% This means that the Longbow is at +35%, for a total Strength of 8.1 with at least 1 first strike.
Spoiler :
W III Maceman:
Str 8, 1 First Strike vs Str 8.1

Gu III Maceman
Str 8 (50% withdraw) vs Str 8.1, 1 First Strike

C III Maceman
Str 10.4 vs Str 8.1, 1 First Strike
The Gu III Maceman is more likely to survive, The C III Maceman is more likely to win, the W III Maceman is only slightly above 3rd place in each category.


Now: If we beat the longbow down with cats and trebs to Str 4 (net 5.4), then the value of the W III first strikes increases (always better when stronger), the value Gu III's withdrawal decreases (less chance of losing), and the value of C III's increased Str increases even more.
 
They are both fantastic promos.
Guerrilla III is one of the major reasons why I've been going on for ages that the Celtic UU and UB are massively underrated. It only takes 1xp to get, and it makes Gallics in particular into absolute monsters. No matter how tough the defenders, you've always got at least a 50% chance of surviving any attack. Before catapults, when you generally have to throw a few sacrificial attackers at a city, this can be a godsend. And the cities where you most need retreating softeners are hilltop cities too, so it's extra nice. Also great for fighting and dislodging pesky defenders from hills in the open too, so it's not just a city raiding promo.
It's also greatly aided by Guerrilla II, which not only makes your guys pretty much unassailable on hills, but also lets them move surprisingly quickly to launch cavalry-like surprise raids deep in enemy territory.

And with the Celts, it's not particularly hard to get CRI or even II in combo with Guerrilla III (8 and 13xp respectively). Obviously, you want a mix of guerrilla and dedicated city raider gallics for your standard troopers though. Likewise a mix of GIII and drill crossbows (GIII crossbows are nice for everyone, and GIII cho-ko-nus are monstrous). If you happen to get feudalism extra-early, you can even give GIII to longbows and take them on the offensive.

Only briefly tried Woodsman III, but it seems to be much more a field promo. Great for controlling forests/jungles in enemy territory, and using the first strikes to attack units when they're vulnerable as they're travelling between cities, while still retaining a massive defensive bonus yourself. The defensive bonus of forest tiles+the bonus from woodsman I+II AND the two first strikes makes your guys pretty untouchable on forest defense too.
And then there's the medic thing, which is just great. I think it's worth babying a unit through to woodsman III/medic I just for the massive medical bonus - particularly for aggressive civs.
 
They are both fantastic promos.
Guerrilla III is one of the major reasons why I've been going on for ages that the Celtic UU and UB are massively underrated. It only takes 1xp to get, and it makes Gallics in particular into absolute monsters. No matter how tough the defenders, you've always got at least a 50% chance of surviving any attack. Before catapults, when you generally have to throw a few sacrificial attackers at a city, this can be a godsend. And the cities where you most need retreating softeners are hilltop cities too, so it's extra nice. Also great for fighting and dislodging pesky defenders from hills in the open too, so it's not just a city raiding promo.
It's also greatly aided by Guerrilla II, which not only makes your guys pretty much unassailable on hills, but also lets them move surprisingly quickly to launch cavalry-like surprise raids deep in enemy territory.

And with the Celts, it's not particularly hard to get CRI or even II in combo with Guerrilla III (8 and 13xp respectively). Obviously, you want a mix of guerrilla and dedicated city raider gallics for your standard troopers though. Likewise a mix of GIII and drill crossbows (GIII crossbows are nice for everyone, and GIII cho-ko-nus are monstrous). If you happen to get feudalism extra-early, you can even give GIII to longbows and take them on the offensive.

Only briefly tried Woodsman III, but it seems to be much more a field promo. Great for controlling forests/jungles in enemy territory, and using the first strikes to attack units when they're vulnerable as they're travelling between cities, while still retaining a massive defensive bonus yourself. The defensive bonus of forest tiles+the bonus from woodsman I+II AND the two first strikes makes your guys pretty untouchable on forest defense too.
And then there's the medic thing, which is just great. I think it's worth babying a unit through to woodsman III/medic I just for the massive medical bonus - particularly for aggressive civs.


That sounds like a really awesome strategy to try. Sounds like Boudicca is made for it.
I'm going to add it to my increasingly large list of 'things to try in Civ 4 when I get home from work and then forget about it'.
 
Since, all things being equal, your SoD is going to park in hills/woods, both Woodsman III and Guerilla III have one drawback: they increase the likelihood that your precious City Raider III unit will chosen as a defender should the defender sally forth to attack your SoD.

That's very true. I guess that if you're going to build GIII units, it would make sense to build a couple with Combat promotions in addition to ones with CR promotions. That way, the Combat guys can take the defense, and the CR guys will move down the list and be less likely to defend.
 
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