Work Ethic Needs to Be Changed to Be Like Choral Music

MarigoldRan

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Completely broken with some of the civs right now. +12 faith/production per turn, (+24 with Brazil) by T30 is utterly utterly broken.

It's a major problem with MP.
 
Alternatively, they could change Desert Folklore, Dance of the Aura, and Sacred Path to faith to the respective tiles rather than adjacency bonuses.
that would be extremely weak since now holy sites wont be buffed by scripture, and you get no food from working desert/tundra tiles. The right thing to do could be tying the production bonus to shrines and temples.
 
I don't know about MP, but i think it's fine. Just a few cities will get the crazy holy sites unless you tweak the map settings, I actually find not being able to take choral music massively sets back your culture game and it's way more consistent than work ethic.

And you still have to get the adjacency pantheon's which is not that easy with most civs as you really need faith gain very early to prevent the ai from taking them first. Took me a few rerolls with Brazil to even get a chance to play with sacred path.
 
Completely broken with some of the civs right now. +12 faith/production per turn, (+24 with Brazil) by T30 is utterly utterly broken.

It's a major problem with MP.

How can you get the double adj card on T30?

A simple solution is to move the 100% Holy Site adjacency card deeper into the culture tree, perhaps with a weaker 50% adjacency card in its current place.
 
I can't achieve that on online speed. Maybe you need Rome, capture 1 or 2 settlers around T0, together with borning near a cultural natural wonder, to achieve that?
maybe a few cultural CS first meets? not too sure. But with Work Ethics is usually quite easy to build monuments quickly
 
A simple solution is to move the 100% Holy Site adjacency card deeper into the culture tree, perhaps with a weaker 50% adjacency card in its current place.
The policy is not unbalanced, the belief is. You nerf the policy card and it becomes useless for most civs.

Personally I'd put an upper cap on adjacency bonuses
 
maybe a few cultural CS first meets? not too sure. But with Work Ethics is usually quite easy to build monuments quickly

I've never achieved that card before T30 on online speed, maybe you shall show me how to get that. I guess you don't only need "a few", but rather "every CS is a culture CS, and all of them are surrounding you and you get a first-meet for all of them within a few turns..."
 
I totally agree with the OP. The scalability of work ethic can lead to it being too unbalanced. Besides, making it like choral music would make it more useful in general and not just niche OP situations.
 
Turning work ethic into choral music for production is probably the most balanced solution, but is a little boring. Another option would be to remove the ability to stack scripture with work ethic, and make it just add production based on the intrinsic faith of the holy site.
 
I've never achieved that card before T30 on online speed, maybe you shall show me how to get that. I guess you don't only need "a few", but rather "every CS is a culture CS, and all of them are surrounding you and you get a first-meet for all of them within a few turns..."
Nah I'm just suggesting a possibility, not here to proof myself.
 
that would be extremely weak since now holy sites wont be buffed by scripture

Forcing players to make the decision between using mountains for a Campus or a Holy Site isn't a bad thing, in my book. And while Scripture would be nerfed, Simultaneum would be buffed since players would be incentivized to grow their cities' populations, and thus be able to work more yield-enhanced tiles.

and you get no food from working desert/tundra tiles

Tundra produces 1 Food, and both can be buffed by storms, tile improvements, and Wonders. And let's be honest, outside niche cases like Russia or Mali, most Civs are going to avoid settling in such terrain in the first place. By shifting the bonus from adjacency bonus to tile yields, you're nerfing cities settled on grasslands and plains bordering deserts and tundras, but you're rewarding those that fully commit to the unique challenges such terrain offers.
 
I imagine that in the MP scene a Russia into tundra pantheon -> work ethic is one of the strongest openers possible. I guess Mali is the only other civ that accumulates faith earlier and faster? But they want to take desert folklore, do they really want to take dance of the aurora as a deny pick?

my guess is the way it works out is that you either just ban Russia as an S-tier civ from the outset, or you have to use an equally OP non-faith strat to negate their advantage (Hungary and Nubia come to mind).

From a single player perspective, I think it really just boils down to Russia being too good. Work ethic wouldn't bother me in any other situation - if you aren't playing Russia, game-planning around getting one of the OP pantheons and getting a religion is itself a risky enough proposition at higher difficulty levels that you should be rewarded if the gamble pays off. After all, the AI usually snags all of the adjacency pantheons themselves. And Mali, the only other civ that gets an early bonus to faith production, has a crippling malus that makes them a fun challenge.

But with Russia, you can guarantee you get the pantheon you want (which is the tundra one because of your start bias and civ bonuses), and then guarantee you get the religion you want (AI doesn't seem to go for work ethic much, so that usually isn't a challenge). On top of all that, because Lavra's are so cheap, you have a pretty automatic game-winning mid-game strat - just go wide and first-build lavras. Once those are up a work-ethic lavra city with 20 shields is going to be able to build basically anything you want in a reasonable amount of time. On top of that, you are claiming land that isn't desirable for anyone else. And on top of that, you are basically winning the faith-economy game (which the AI isn't capable of winning in the first place).
 
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