Worker Chop - the (preliminary) Guide
- Thread starter EridanMan
- Start date
dh_epic
Cold War Veteran
EridanMan said:
I had one of my best games ever at monarch difficulty, gunning for horse archers with Tokugawa. I conquered two civilizations before 0 BC, and beelined to alphabet to trade with the other civs for the other techs I missed.
I eventually got to bronzeworking, but did much less chopping than other games.
There are options besides chopping. In fact, at the highest difficulty levels, I'd say the horse archer rush is much more essential: it is impossible to keep up with the AI at the highest levels even with chopping, but humans still enjoy a natural advantage when it comes to war.
WuphonsReach
Prince
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2005
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- 426
The other thing to remember about forests is that they can regrow from an adjacent square. (I'm not 100% sure of all of the ins-and-outs about this yet. Dunno if you can put a road on the tile and still have it resprout from an adjacent tile.)
I'm going to say that I was having lots of difficutly on monarch after breezing through noble and prince, until I adopted the worker chop method. I have altered it slightly and have a nice formula for a good start. I play with india, who start with mining and mysticism. I put my city down and start researching meditation. Since my worker would finish b4 bronze working this way, i build a warrior in the mean time. About 10 turns later, I have 2 warriors, buddhism and a pop 2 town. My build order then goes worker, settler, oracle. I move my worker on to the next city to chop out a warrior and settler, and then on to the next town. After 4 cities I stop expanding. After bronze working I go preisthood, writing, code of laws. I use the oracle (which usually completes 3 or 4 turns after writing) for alphabet, and trade for all the techs I missed. Has worked well in multiple games for me, just make sure to pump out some archers and axemen after the oracle in your main city.
JenniferKind
Chieftain
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2005
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- 21
The title post is very misleading, you won't be able to take any cities (on noble) with 3 warriors and 1 archer. Every AI in noble has at least 1 archer and a couple of warriors by the time you reach their city.
I play usually on emperor and higher.
chop is nice
but building worker first is wrong, you will get overwhelmed, especially if you have agressive civs as neighbours.
first you build 2 warriors for the time you build 1 worker and meanwhile your city gets to size 3. Those initial 15 - 23 turns depending on game mode you use the first warrior plus the second one to uncover a close civ and identify where its first worker is built. Then steal the worker and you'll have 3 warriors plus 1-2 workers ( depending on how many close-by civs you have) and a size 3 city at turn 23.
At higher than emperor levels - oponent start with lots of archers and usually protects his worker but still there are mistakes in the AI and it moves worker first and the next turn the archer follows, so you can still catch the worker off-guard though a little bit harder.
chop is nice
but building worker first is wrong, you will get overwhelmed, especially if you have agressive civs as neighbours.
first you build 2 warriors for the time you build 1 worker and meanwhile your city gets to size 3. Those initial 15 - 23 turns depending on game mode you use the first warrior plus the second one to uncover a close civ and identify where its first worker is built. Then steal the worker and you'll have 3 warriors plus 1-2 workers ( depending on how many close-by civs you have) and a size 3 city at turn 23.
At higher than emperor levels - oponent start with lots of archers and usually protects his worker but still there are mistakes in the AI and it moves worker first and the next turn the archer follows, so you can still catch the worker off-guard though a little bit harder.
Jennifer- I can show you a game where I did... it isn't until Monarch that the opponents start with two archers/settler/worker, in nobel, your opponents start on the same footing you do - show up before they build their first archer, and you definitely can walk over them with four warriors and an archer... (I was battling 2 fortified warriors).
The idea of a chop-rush start is simple - get out there with more than they expect sooner than they expect... sure, if you build up a 4 warrior-1 archer force 'normally' it will be slaughtered by the time you get it to a nearby opponents capital... turn it out 35 turns after the game start though, and you stand a very good chance of catching them with their pants down.
And - no one said you had to build warriors... what about rushing and grabbing the good resources by them? Laying out your cities first means you can start building up first - get the good techs first, and lay waste to your opponent through a combination of better tech and more cities to produce your hoards...
I've got a Monarch game started where I'm finally doing decently - I decided to shoot for a two-worker start- even though I actually started in a predominently jungle terrain (far fewer forests than I'm comfortable with)... I've ended up clear-cutting away most of my forests - we'll see how that bites me later, but I still managed (barily) to get my settlers out before my opponents, seize the worthwhile resources, and then elbo-grease build a stack of 8 praitorians (Awsome units btw, regularly slaughter fortified archers on the first try), and clean out my closest neighbor - I am now the largets empire in the world with 8 cities in an easily defendable position... we'll see if I can keep my advantage.
I will be refining this guide and re-posting, btw- as I gain more experience- but more and more I'm feeling that chop-rushing isn't just a domination strategy for easy games- its the only way to stay competitive as you move up the scale.
The idea of a chop-rush start is simple - get out there with more than they expect sooner than they expect... sure, if you build up a 4 warrior-1 archer force 'normally' it will be slaughtered by the time you get it to a nearby opponents capital... turn it out 35 turns after the game start though, and you stand a very good chance of catching them with their pants down.
And - no one said you had to build warriors... what about rushing and grabbing the good resources by them? Laying out your cities first means you can start building up first - get the good techs first, and lay waste to your opponent through a combination of better tech and more cities to produce your hoards...
I've got a Monarch game started where I'm finally doing decently - I decided to shoot for a two-worker start- even though I actually started in a predominently jungle terrain (far fewer forests than I'm comfortable with)... I've ended up clear-cutting away most of my forests - we'll see how that bites me later, but I still managed (barily) to get my settlers out before my opponents, seize the worthwhile resources, and then elbo-grease build a stack of 8 praitorians (Awsome units btw, regularly slaughter fortified archers on the first try), and clean out my closest neighbor - I am now the largets empire in the world with 8 cities in an easily defendable position... we'll see if I can keep my advantage.
I will be refining this guide and re-posting, btw- as I gain more experience- but more and more I'm feeling that chop-rushing isn't just a domination strategy for easy games- its the only way to stay competitive as you move up the scale.
Batvanio said:
You are evil - I _LOVE_ it, I never considered stealing an opponents starting worker, but that's a fabulous strategy- and lets engage in chop-rushing without sacrificing the first 23 turns of your city growth...
I'll definitely attempt that route next time... Thanks for the tip
Flambeaux said:
You attack them with a military unit and they surrender. You get control of them next turn. Be sure to get them home asap so the bad guys don't steal'em back.
This is a great thread btw. Lots of new ideas that haven't remotely occurred to me.
eldar
ChiefTank
Just for the evil "steal their worker and run away" tactic, it's been worth reading 
Given:
- the cost of 'em in the first place;
- the fact they have a move of 2;
- most AI units that can attack will only have move one early on
This must be quite effective on mid-high levels.
I suspect at Imm/Deity all workers will get covered... though again the workers might pull ahead of their shadows very briefly.
Given:
- the cost of 'em in the first place;
- the fact they have a move of 2;
- most AI units that can attack will only have move one early on
This must be quite effective on mid-high levels.
I suspect at Imm/Deity all workers will get covered... though again the workers might pull ahead of their shadows very briefly.
dh_epic
Cold War Veteran
ajil and Batvanio have shown why you shouldn't always build a worker right away.
Again, to say "build a worker right away and start chopping" doesn't say much. Right away can mean 4000 BC, but I've also put it off until I start approaching alphabet (that's pretty extreme though).
You just need to have a worker out and chopping by the ancient age. I've chopped to build settlers, but I've held out and chopped to spam missionaries. And I've held out and chopped to build the oracle. And I've held out to chop and spam horse archers. They've all brought me different kinds of success, depending on my starting location, traits, and resources.
Again, to say "build a worker right away and start chopping" doesn't say much. Right away can mean 4000 BC, but I've also put it off until I start approaching alphabet (that's pretty extreme though).
You just need to have a worker out and chopping by the ancient age. I've chopped to build settlers, but I've held out and chopped to spam missionaries. And I've held out and chopped to build the oracle. And I've held out to chop and spam horse archers. They've all brought me different kinds of success, depending on my starting location, traits, and resources.
All of a sudden, starting with hunting seems like a _BAD_ idea... I'd take a woodsman II warrior any day.
<edit>
dh
if you can steal a worker, then yes its a bad idea... however - that's a gamble- if you don't manage to steal one, then your just putting yourself more and more behind for every turn you don't get your first worker out there to ramp up your production.
I've tried all permutations, the 'build the city first, then start a worker, because a city builds really slowly initially" strategy is a fallacy - in almost all cases, building a worker first will get that worker out there many turns sooner (the best case 'wait' scenario is 5 turns later (if the city is in a really good location), but usually 10-20), that's 10-20 turns of ramped-up production of military and settling units that your missing out on just so that you can get that one extra improvement or population level - when the city will grow faster anyways if you just let it wait until _AFTER_ you get two workers, because you can drop down those farms at that point.
Now, steal a worker = awsome, because you get best of both worlds, but its a risk, because again your setting yourself back by not getting that initial worker out there... What I will probably try for my next game, is still build a worker straight off the bat- but, the second I manage to steal one, switch production to something else, and just save the sheilds spent the worker thusfar as a little 'bonus'...
<edit>
dh
if you can steal a worker, then yes its a bad idea... however - that's a gamble- if you don't manage to steal one, then your just putting yourself more and more behind for every turn you don't get your first worker out there to ramp up your production.
I've tried all permutations, the 'build the city first, then start a worker, because a city builds really slowly initially" strategy is a fallacy - in almost all cases, building a worker first will get that worker out there many turns sooner (the best case 'wait' scenario is 5 turns later (if the city is in a really good location), but usually 10-20), that's 10-20 turns of ramped-up production of military and settling units that your missing out on just so that you can get that one extra improvement or population level - when the city will grow faster anyways if you just let it wait until _AFTER_ you get two workers, because you can drop down those farms at that point.
Now, steal a worker = awsome, because you get best of both worlds, but its a risk, because again your setting yourself back by not getting that initial worker out there... What I will probably try for my next game, is still build a worker straight off the bat- but, the second I manage to steal one, switch production to something else, and just save the sheilds spent the worker thusfar as a little 'bonus'...
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