Workers and pop-rushing

chunkymonkey

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As I understand the rule, workers may not be joined to cities with the sole intent of using them to pop-rush stuff.

What should I do with my workers once I have no more fieldwork for them to do? In my current game, I'm pop-rushing stuff all over my empire and will be until the end. Am I justified in breaking this rule purely in this instance? Or should I just leave my workers to roam free?
 
Chances are, if you're at the point where your workers have nothing left to do, you're going to start experiencing pollution soon enough. Just set them all on shift-P and they'll stay out of the way while probably getting all pollution up in one turn. (This is assuming you've railroaded everywhere, right?) Also, slaves don't cost you anything to keep, so there's no reason NOT to keep them around.
 
Well, thing is, i'm not building any hospitals or factories, so pollution won't be a problem.

Unit upkeep isn't a problem for me either.
 
I'm guessing you're playing a 100K game, and are in Communism (I can't think of another reason anyone would be pop-rushing late in the game!). If unit upkeep isn't a problem, keeping the workers fortified would be a safer bet.

Or set them all doing dumb tasks, like building fortresses and barricades all around your borders...
 
You could disband them for a couple of shields each. 15 will build you a temple.

The exploit is turning something that cost you 10 food and 10 shields into 20 shields by pop rushing, so disbanding is not in the same league.
 
I thought the rule was that you could not build workers with the sole purpose of using them for whipping when joining them into another town?
Doesn't that mean that joining existing workers to cities for poprushing would be allowed?
 
@Darkness: I only have experience of this in the current SGOTM, and mad-bax's ruling in that game was no pop rushing in towns where workers have been joined. It's a simpler rule than yours, where the player's intentions have to be interpreted. What constitutes "solely ..."? If a bunch of workers build a railway for one turn on their way to a pop-rush town, is that sufficient to be able to claim they were built for another purpose?
 
Darkness said:
I thought the rule was that you could not build workers with the sole purpose of using them for whipping when joining them into another town?
Doesn't that mean that joining existing workers to cities for poprushing would be allowed?

It strikes me that that is just highlighting poor wording of the rule: presumably this is your aim. Surely the rule should be that joining workers for poprushing is illegal. I had assumed that was the case, and if it isn't it should be. Otherwise, you could use a worker to build one road and then join it to a town for poprushing quite legally: ridiculous .

edit: I see AlanH has beaten me to this, saying something similar :crazyeye:
 
The GOTM rule actually only addresses units, not cultural buildings. I personally don't think it should apply to cultural buildings once workers have nothing to do near the end of the game (but of course we're following mad-bax's ruling in the current SGOTM).

I'd prefer the rule to be along the lines of Darkness' understanding - that workers cannot be built for the purpose of using them to pop-rush or replaced once used to pop-rush. (This would allow both unit and improvement pop-rushing near the end of the game as long as the player doesn't build more workers after starting to joining workers.)

There have been hints in some fast 100k write-ups in the last few months that the players have joined workers once the land was completely improved. I'd be curious to know if that has been done in the fastest games. As I said, I don't think there's anything wrong with that (and joining workers to pop cultural buildings is currently within a strict reading of the rules).
 
Just to be clear, here is the text from the gotm.civfanatics.net, Code of Conduct section:

Pop-rushing
In despotism and communism it is possible to use cities purely for unit rush building. Workers can be added to such a city and then the city can then use them to rush build units. This is disallowed, so do not create these kind of cities. Pop rushing one or two regular citizens to finish a building or to build a unit is within the rules and the spirit of the game. What is against the rules is joining workers to cities for the purpose of pop rushing.

WillowBrook: it specifically mentions using Joined Workers for pop-rushing Units as being completely unacceptable, but allows a limited pop-rush of "regular citizens" to finish a building or build a unit. Unlimited Joining of Workers and then pop-rushing of anything, units or buildings, is unacceptable based on what I'm reading.

What does unlimited mean? When this rule was implemented, at least one person was found to have cities of size1 with just a specialist in them; they'd been used to pop-rush down to complete unhappiness, and with a Barracks in them, you could Join workers and use Short-rushing to generate a Veteran unit every turn and transfer the unhappiness hit to this city, so virtually no effect.

My interpretation is that units and buildings can be pop-rushed and workers can be joined to a city that pop-rushes as long as the resulting unhappiness is small enough that some citizens are still working in the city's tiles and you don't pop-rush more than the original "pre-joined" population of the city. It's impossible to say under this scenario whether "regular citizens" or Joined Workers were used to pop-rush, and they are effectively interchangeable. I don't think there's any problem with Joining workers to a city, whether it's pop-rushed earlier or not, if that city never pop-rushes again; it has already taken the unhappiness so the player is not avoiding that effect of pop-rushing, which is the intent behind this rule.

Another possible use of Workers is to Join them to a city and then Draft a defensive unit (Rifleman, Infantry, etc.), potentially to use for disbanding somewhere else. The rule doesn't mention Drafting, but since a unit is generated, I'd feel doing this violates the rule, IMO. This has a much broader potential impact, since Drafting is available under all governments, and the staff should address this specifically, especially with the focus on 100K games recently.

(edited to discuss regular citizens)
 
WillowBrook said:
There have been hints in some fast 100k write-ups in the last few months that the players have joined workers once the land was completely improved.

That seems like a logical use of those workers. Building workers after the land has been (nearly) fully improved, to use them for joining and rushing would a far more logical practise to be banned, IMHO...
 
It looks like the original concern was that people were pop-rushing and avoiding the resulting unhappiness, since a size-1 town can be made an entertainer, or a larger town can be left to starve. :nono: Those in the conversation linked to by DaveMcW didn't seem to think it was wrong to join workers for the purpose of pop-rushing as long as the player had to deal with the resulting unhappiness (this was before the rule in question was put in place). There were also concerns about the dogpile exploit (which I've never tried or taken the time to understand :blush: ).

I'd prefer something like the following rule to address that concern:
Players should have to bear the unhappiness cost of pop-rushing, and should not take advantage of the dog-pile exploit. In particular,
- no joining workers to cities that are starving or that have to starve to prevent rioting, and
- no joining workers to cities that require an entertainer to not riot at size 1.


Of course, the above rule would be hard to enforce. (But we can't really enforce the current rule well, either.) :crazyeye:

I agree that it appears that the spirit of the current rule would extend to joining workers for pop-rushing buildings or drafting, not just to units. But since the original concern was the creation of "throwaway" cities that would always be at size one and "absorb" the pop-rush unhappiness without penalty, the analogy doesn't really extend to either buildings or drafting.
- Buildings are built once and kept in the town; you can't pop-rush 5 libraries in a town to get five times the culture.
- Drafting requires a town of at least size 7, so the unhappiness effects have to be dealt with.

In sum, mad-bax's interpretation of the current rule is certainly plausible, but not the only one. I'd prefer a different interpretation, or, better yet, a different rule altogether.

More thoughts (in case anyone is still curious :p ) -
- Not allowing the conversion of unneeded workers into shields doesn't make sense as long as it's fine to disband units, especially drafted units, in order to hurry production. I would be extremely surprised if any of the fast finishes in the current SGOTM didn't make extensive use of drafting and disbanding (as well as a huge amount of pop-rushing of native citizens.) Yes, workers can be disbanded for 2 shields - but part of the cost of a worker is the pop-point, and I think that should be able to be recovered instead of the shields at the player's discretion.
- The restrictions in GOTM are generally there to avoid exploiting what players have decided is a "bug" in the game that messes with the built-in limitations/challenges of the game. Size 1 towns being able to absorb "infinite" unhappiness is one such bug. Moving a pop-point from one town to another at the cost of 10 shields is not.
- Drafting at size 7 seems to me to be as much of an exploit as building a worker for the purpose of pop-rushing it in another town. (Growth from size 6 to 7 uses the small, town-sized granary and can often be done in one turn, but growth takes much longer from size 7 and up.) I don't think there's anything wrong with taking advantage of this "window of opportunity". But I don't see how this is much different than building a worker in a town with 1-turn growth and 10 shields. In one case, there is unhappiness to deal with eventually; in the other, there have to be 10 shields available.
 
WillowBrook said:
I would be extremely surprised if any of the fast finishes in the current SGOTM didn't make extensive use of drafting and disbanding

I think my teams' performance was pretty solid, and no we didn't do any drafting, and no disbanding until the bitter end when the difference made was marginal.

Very impressive digging out those old threads DaveMcW, even if it was partly about the odious dogpile exploit. And thanks to Civ-Steve for poiting out the actual rule, which says just what it should:

What is against the rules is joining workers to cities for the purpose of pop rushing.

That sounds straightforward to me.
 
Well, yeah, I am playing 100K, and i'm in Feudalism (i wasn't trying to replicate Dynamic's COTM10 win by design, it just happened that way :) ).

Basically, joining my existing workers to the cities once they have finished all useful work will shave possibly a couple of turns at the most off of my win date, so I'm happy not to do it if it seems dodgy, as long as nobody beats me by a couple of turns :mischief: .

However, this is a quote from Dynamics CoTM10 industrial age spoiler:

Dynamic said:
I not built workers during the rush stage of the game and join only existing workers after they ended its work.

Personally, I feel as though I invested a pop point and 10 shields earlier in the game, and therefore returning the pop point (and forfeiting the 10 shields) to another city isn't too exploitative at this point in the game, when I am approx 10-15 turns from reaching 100K.
 
As I indicated, I'm a noob with respect to pop rushing, and have none of Aeson's experience of the origins of these rules. My comments were based on the fact that you never get back anything like what you invest in units or buildings anywhere else, except by using them. Here it seems you get to use them AND get back a lot of what you put in.

Maybe it's as Aeson says, the compensating losses come from the rush or draft unhappiness, but until Ainwood gets back after the weekend and gives us the benefit of his wisdom, I can only speculate.
 
Offa said:
I think my teams' performance was pretty solid, and no we didn't do any drafting, and no disbanding until the bitter end when the difference made was marginal.

I am surprised! ("pretty solid" - what an understatement :lol: ) I'll be looking forward to reading your thread once we (Xteam) finish to try and figure out your secrets. ;)
 
Arrrr, I'll be interested in Ainwood's judgement on this case. Who is the final arbiter anyway? This is an issue that's concerned me for some time, one that has caused me to put weird limits on my games... like joining workers when the work is done, but not buying workers in corrupt towns, but going ahead and building more workers by hand... Personally, I think this needs clearing up!
 
What about when you are going for a 20k victory and have just finished building Shakespeare's Theater (I believe this is the one, allowing you to grow over pop 12). Is it allowed to use pre-existing workers to join the city to get it to pop 20? Is this allowed? Some of my workers had been around from the beginning.
 
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