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Workshops and Watermills

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Theruss, Dec 19, 2010.

  1. Ghpstage

    Ghpstage Deity

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    Space only needs a few main production cities, theres nothing wrong with tearing down towns and workshopping over them!
    Doesn't matter how early you get access to Workshops, they will suck till you have 2 of Guilds/Caste/Chemistry regardless. This is one of those depends moments, MC is the most expensive of the techs and the real value of all 3 changes a lot with context, e.g. Currency and Alpha lose value if isolated, Forges are better with Gems/Gold/Silver etc, etc

    The best way to learn is to try, time for a no cottage challenge or two :p
     
  2. ColossusXXIII

    ColossusXXIII Warlord

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    Generally no, it may be slightly unconventional but I sometimes even build my ironworks in my cap. It's really map dependent and situational with regards to the capital and what I'll do there... If I have good terrain I'll work it to the max, otherwise i shoot for food+Gp's. The great peoples instant impact far outweighs the slow growth benefits of cottages

    I really avoid building any cottages at all whenever possible. I even mow down mature towns around cities that I capture to replace them with workshops and stuff. While at war I pillage every cottage possible for the extra gold and leave all the resources intact. The city Novograd displayed above is captured, and used to be an AI cottage spam city.

    Again highly situational, however i almost never follow the metal casting route, in fact I actually avoid metal casting until I'm close to getting lib. Then i start back trading like crazy and pick up MC in the process. Confused? Early, I mostly run a specialist + slavery economy and then transition into the hammer economy as the better techs and improvements come online.

    Yes I suffer somewhat early, but I also play on Deity so no matter what you do early it's tough. I'll explain how I get around this briefly. earliest source of gold is capture gold. Many people like to rex early, I usually build an army and crush someone right away instead and let them build the settlers for me. i use the gold to run 100% slider as long as possible while pushing for writing. then whip libraries in almost every city, and try to run 2 scientists everywhere possible. This should get you aesth (trade bait), get alphabet for it use alpha to either tech trade with the ai or bribe them to war with each other. Start second war...Build research in some cities tech or trade for currency+CoL. run caste+build wealth (forge not vital) run silder 100% (or close), bulb lib techs>get civil service>get lib>backfill techs through trade >switch specialists from scientist to merchants>start war 3>as soon as you can get relevant techs, transition into full out hammer economy usually around chemistry+repl parts etc.

    The most important thing early is to farm like crazy and run scientist specialists in many cities. use slavery to get buildings like libr/mar/groc/univ etc. This should get you through early production/war/tech needs. Also very important to get monarchy or rep or tons of happy resources. anything to get your pop growing....usually when I trade for machinery,guilds etc. I begin pre building some watermills and workshops in anticipation that my city will grow onto them once the relevant techs are available. Once you get SP replace every farm you can with a watermill, and workshop just about everywhere else. Also never forget the windmill, build them on river mines first, and then over more mines as you get to electricity. they help your cities keep growing and working more tiles or specs.

    Hope I could help

    happy holidays
     
  3. ColossusXXIII

    ColossusXXIII Warlord

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    My pleasure :D
     
  4. ColossusXXIII

    ColossusXXIII Warlord

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    good points

    tough to get used to at first, but the experience pays off most certainly...
     
  5. TheWilltoAct

    TheWilltoAct I am observe

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    I know exactly where you're coming from. This is something that I am experiencing again in my current game, and a recurring source of frustration. Chopping trees does seem to be a useful activity for a worker after specials are attended to. Renewing expansion efforts (via settlers in my case) can also bring more useful tiles within reach.
     
  6. peppe1

    peppe1 Warlord

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    Metal casting can come late. Probably right after Civil Service. Early game production comes from whipping.

    After worker techs I usually I go little b-lines like this:
    1. Alphabet -> Currency
    2. Aesthetics (great trade bait) -> Literature (Great Library)
    3. Code of Laws -> Civil Service
    4. Mathematics (Trade if you can) -> Calendar (Trade if you can)
    5. Music / Metal Casting (Trade if you can)
    6. Paper -> Education
    7a. If in war go engineering then guilds
    7b. If peaceful go Guilds then pre-reqs for Steel (take with liberalism). Make sure you have a source of iron!

    Calendar may move higher if it will unlock a lot of resources.

    Depending on the difficulty you can trade more of these around than others. Assuming you have no trade partners, the above is the order i try to get them.

    Workshops are fairly worthless until you get a castle + guilds and you don't want to go into caste system until universities are whipped in.

    Farm as much as you can and head for civil service. Whip infrastructure and an army if you have a target. Run scientists to get through the techs. When you get Civil Service farm some more. Whip in forges before whipping in universities.

    Worker turns should go to farming and chopping. If nothing else looks useful you can start workshopping plains. But don't plan to work them until you get guilds and are ready switch to caste.
     
  7. yanner39

    yanner39 Emperor

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    Very Helpful. I think I've relied on FIN/ORG Civs and cottages for too long. I've always relied on cottages to get to the key, important techs. I always think I won't be able to generate enough research w/o the commerce generate by cottages. How many cities do aim for in the early going? With 6 cities by 1AD, you're looking at what, 65-70 beakers per turn assuming non-rep specs? Not bad I guess but I always try and aim for 100 b/turn. Still I know i can be done.

    The biggest challange for me will be what to build early on when I would be usually building cottages. :)

    Any example of games you can show, especially in the early going would be great. This is something I will definately try during the holiday break.

    Happy Holidays to you.
     
  8. yanner39

    yanner39 Emperor

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    True enough. And I don't usually get it early. I was thinking more for the forge production bonus and the happies to grow your cities (assuming you have gold/gems/silver)

    I'm bad at using the search engine, but do you now of threads where players play a no-cottage challenge? I remember a few months ago looking at one and was pretty impressed.
     
  9. need my speed

    need my speed Rex Omnium Imperarium

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    I believe MadScientist had a roleplay game with rules including no cottages, but I'm not 100% sure. I believe he was roleplaying as some American guy (Thomas Jefferson?) and only allowed a few specific tile improvements, among other rules.
     
  10. huerfanista

    huerfanista Emperor

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  11. yanner39

    yanner39 Emperor

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    Yes, you are correct. Thanks for the reminder.
     
  12. drlake

    drlake Emperor

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  13. deckoff9

    deckoff9 Chieftain

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    i got a question. does rush buy benefit from factories?
     
  14. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    I thought about it the other day. I think one of the things that was too limiting was the request to replace the cottages taken from enemies.

    Maybe if we changed the rules a bit (no cottages until 1AD +-, so basically you will have to replace cottages in early rush phase, but can hold the late cottages after you make later war to not get tedious gameplay)
     
  15. ColossusXXIII

    ColossusXXIII Warlord

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    I don't think so, the only thing i can think of that helps is the kremlin. but i'm not sure...
     
  16. drlake

    drlake Emperor

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    I started a Ragnar game on an archipelago map the other day, and almost by default ended up with a SE-style game. Not much in the way of specs, either, since I went with a cold planet and ended up with no good GP farms. Interesting game, though, since none of the AIs managed to tech all that fast either.
     
  17. snepp

    snepp King

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    Some tile improvement stats from the end of my last game (Mansa) that no one is going to care about...

    59 workshops
    30 farms
    27 windmills
    24 watermills
    23 mines
    18 towns
    9 lumbermills
    30 pasture/camp/plantation/well
     
  18. drlake

    drlake Emperor

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    I've started to appreciate workshops/watermills/windmills/lumbermills more lately. My habit is to get to what I consider a decisive position by the renaissance, and then quit in favor of starting another game. When I play further, though, I see the power of these improvements as you start to get into the modern era.
     
  19. nishant1911

    nishant1911 *hugs*

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    so much cottage hate!

    people who think they are doing better by building farms are merely seeing an effect that higher pop cities working medium tile yields tend to do better than medium pop cities working higher tile yields. in normal games their cities simply don't grow fast enough .

    farms are pretty good improvement ,but for me they are a tool for growth rather than source of research . i tend to work cottages and retain that +2f rather than sacrificing that for a mere extra research.this ofcourse all the while assuming you already have a working gp farm.

    not to mention that you have to build a library before you can assign any scientists or in early game you don't have that much irrigation to build farms or there aren't many choices aside from cottages in early game . also building farms require more worker turns.
    i agree with obsolete that working a grassland cottage isn't a good idea but when i know that having a higher population is better than lower one and i don't have a better tile to work , i will work that grassland cottage just for faster growth with +2f all the while maturing it into a better tile .
    just my 2$
     
  20. nishant1911

    nishant1911 *hugs*

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    double post
     

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