1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Workshops and Watermills

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Theruss, Dec 19, 2010.

  1. ColossusXXIII

    ColossusXXIII Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2010
    Messages:
    267
    I've been lurking through that game a little and thought you were doing fairly well, despite a couple mistakes as you mentioned.

    2 per city should get you aesth easy, trade for alpha (after 2-3 turns of self research), build research, get currency, build wealth. Going to war and capturing wonders or forested capitals to chop/build wonders/fail gold. And not to mention capture gold of course (my favorite).


    In the first place, in general I prefer creative leaders (spiritual leaders also awesome). quick libraries to whip easily in every city, plus the obvious benefits of spreading culture automatically. Universities, are rarely difficult to simply build/chop/finish with whip, even with non philo leaders. switching to caste is extremely situational, the timing of which is highly game dependent. For me, I do it during any Golden age and then switch back, or depending on the bulb requirements for Lib. If I need to bulb, more than whip I go cast. Otherwise, start adding forges and markets or grocers if you have early rep to run other specs. even without rep other specs have a lot of benefits.

    trade routes as vranasm mentioned and trading for techs of course. Also don't neglect multiplier buildings,capture gold, failure gold, bulbing/academy or demanding tech as tribute/begging from friends... Everything combined fuels your research, that's why it's versatile and balanced.

    me 2 :D, It is micro intensive, but the rewards are outweigh the burden IMO.
     
  2. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2008
    Messages:
    25,713
    I'd say that once you're experienced, map reads become everything, and tile improvement choice is no longer a canned decision pre-game. You can certainly argue that in the majority of your games most of your cities seem better-suited w/o cottages; that is the dominant high-level position on these forums. But always going max hammers or GPP is going to get you killed sometimes, just like always doing anything.

    Case in point:

    You are assuming you have a viable conquest target for your units, for starters. When you spawn near sitting bull or someone similar on immortal+ or anyone on deity with a relatively fast speed, taking cities with units is NOT a cost-effective alternative to settlers early game unless you're fielding one of the most powerful UUs in existence, and even then might be a loss proposition. Taking land that early also risks others moving in on land you'd have gotten with settles, having a significant opportunity cost. Finally, isolation happens. You're not taking anything but barb cities early on then.

    It's ridiculous to compare cottages to production. Nobody who's good is going to advocate spamming cottage cities to the exclusion of production options. Cottage cities are only worth considering outside of a strong GPP site, for commerce. Riverside cottages (and FIN cottages in general) are pretty strong compared to non-rep specs if the city isn't going to produce a great person. In the first 100 turns they're even pretty good against mines (especially plains mines).

    Does that mean you make 8 cottage cities, 1 GP farm, and 1 hammer city? No, that isn't balanced. You'd only do that if you felt there was about 0 chance of needing defenses early on, although having a heroic epic city doesn't exactly make that a SUICIDE proposition on any difficulty below deity, mind you, it just isn't optimal.

    10 turns if riverside, and it costs less food. However, you've another trap here. A city with an academy will make the cottages seem more favorable; bureaucracy will make them seem more favorable still (commerce gets a multiplicative bonus from that civic, while hammers are only additive). You also have to consider the availability of good commerce/cottage land against mines; you're not working mines early on unless you have the hills.

    This is a trap consideration. Try not to go here; we all know how to get around that constraint EASILY unless you have a ridiculous # of cottage cities and nothing else.

    Libraries are a cheaper 25% multiplier, and additional multipliers are available to cottages sooner. Once again, bureaucracy is stronger for :commerce: than :hammers:, but early oxford is also standard in high-level metagames, and only specs/commerce benefit from it.

    Besides, you can generally win the lib race with 1 good GP farm regardless of what else you're doing.

    Share tiles, and don't build too many cottage cities.

    Anyway the point is to evaluate each tile improvement in each situation. Bur cottage sites are very effective; I've seen deity players win with mostly cottages and with no cottages. Every tile improvement you make, in theory, goes through ROI analysis to consider how much it brings you and how quickly you get the benefits. An early riverside cottage is not nearly so weak as some imply. While hating on mass cottages w/o thought is appropriate, hating on the tile improvement in the general sense is not. When you're building your arguments against them that I've quoted, you are completely ignoring some opportunity costs and making some assumptions that are not consistently the case. I could make up assumptions too, but in practice it's just a matter of knowing what you're doing and what early options are viable.
     
  3. Shorlin

    Shorlin Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2009
    Messages:
    201
    Nice thread, feel like i learned a lot. It reminds me of Starcraft: CE is like zerg, weak and vulnerable early game but comes into its own mid-late game with monster bureau capital and US/rushbuy. HE is like terran more versatile and suits being offensive, with powerful tactics if you can micro your cities right.

    Having read this I really feel like I'm not getting the most out of slavery, when is the right time to whip, as soon as it is available or wait till there is unhappiness?
     
  4. ColossusXXIII

    ColossusXXIII Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2010
    Messages:
    267
    of course map read is very important, nothing for me is really decided pre-game...
    And precisely what I'm arguing is just that- in most situations SE/HE>CE in my experience. Like you said doing anything all the time is poor, but I've honestly very seldom come across a map which favored heavy cottaging. So for me the SE/HE generally works best, it's my "high percentage play". HE wins for versatility IMO, you can even successfully win culture battles, by setting strategic cities to build culture independent of slider investment. Perhaps not the best use of hammers, but high production makes anything possible. That's just another example.


    True I do make that assumption, but in most cases it's safe to say that there is a viable target reasonably early. i only play on deity, and while most of my experience comes from marathon. My last few wins were on normal speed. I find taking cities fairly cost effective, particularly if you factor in captured wonders and capital sites, not to mention free workers. Also free buildings, capture gold and free citizens to whip away (you can whip settlers too):D . I do see your points however, they are valid as well. And yes iso does happen, but in a small fraction of games IMO.

    Here you're talking about a city that has an academy, which requires a specific Gp to make cottages more favorable. Seems like a little much to help along a tile improvement IMO. When discussing Bureau, we are discussing 1 city, what about the rest of the empire? what about the rest of the game? before and after bureaucracy? (i must admit, that in many games i run it for awhile) And while it's true, that EARLY you need hills to run an HE, by mid game you don't. The only good early cottage/commerce city sites for me would be almost all jungle, with no fresh water at all/no food specials/pre-bureau. in other words mediocre terrain... Anything with a river/food specials/but no hills, for me would be settled to farm specs/whip/etc until watermills+workshops.


    I would say that 95% of my cities get a library, so for me that's a moot point... Libraries also multiply beakers from specs. while it's true that additional multiplier buildings are available to cottages sooner than mines/watermills/workshops/watermills/lumber mills etc. the techs for the other improvements aren't very far off. So the difference in the time line is minimal IMO, and situational as well. It depends on the tech path as well as other variables, which techs you reach first. Also a hammer heavy city can actually build all of those multiplier buildings, and then run specs if food is available. Anyways my point is that a cottage heavy city has a tougher time putting up the necessary infrastructure to benefit from the extra commerce the tiles are generating. This all points back to my main point, versatility. A hammer heavy city can make wealth, whereas a commerce heavy city can't make production. In the early game at least, unless you get the myds' and run US you can't rush buy.

    Agreed... winning lib is easy enough in most cases on diety, no matter what you do economically besides crash completely.

    What you're saying works, but the difference maker for me is that you really can't have too many hammer cities. Post currency, building wealth a city can at the very least pay for itself and usually profits very quickly.

    I've done both... many cottages just meant different civics, less micro, and diminished war capabilities. Though I must admit early when I first started playing civ 4 cottages were my economic crutch so to speak. Since moving past monarch, i rarely build them (if ever).

    Perhaps not as weak, but still weak...

    Agreed, it's all about making the best of what you get, and knowing how to make yourself viable. While it's true that i did make some assumptions which were not true a 100% of the time (like needing a military for war if you start in isolation), they are true a majority of the time in my experience. therefore they aren't really wild assumptions, but rather reasonable ones IMO.
     
  5. ColossusXXIII

    ColossusXXIII Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2010
    Messages:
    267
    i think this thread is losing it's direction. The point was to determine whether a cottage was superior to a watermill or workshop, as a tile improvement. so let's look at the difference between the 2 or 3...

    Assuming a grassland river, on one side you build a cottage and on the same turn build a watermill on the opposite bank of the river. which tile is better? even with all the civics and techs in favor of the cottage, I think the watermill wins on turn 1. As the game progressed, the cottage would surpass the watermill, until the relevant techs to improve it's benefit. once both were fully matured and teched out I think the watermill would be better overall if not simply be more versatile. Especially if you change the civics/techs to favor the watermill, with Sp+electricity+repl parts etc. running it's not even close watermill> riverside town for me at least.

    assuming no river early grassland cottage>grassland workshop no doubt. the main reason being -food. But again with Sp+relevant techs+relevant civics, IMO the hammers from the workshop trump the gold from a town (even with relevant techs+civics). Simply because they can be invested in more ways. workshops are also much easier to replace than towns if they get pillaged or destroyed otherwise.

    I leave it to others to crunch the actual numbers, my statements are based purely on in game observations I've made personally, without having done the actual math.

    The only real conclusion I can come to after all this is that-
    the best tile improvement is the one that best suits the individual player, in the individual situation, in the specific game. For me the production based tile improvements suit my play style best, and I am the most successful while working them. Of course everyone's experiences vary.
     
  6. Gwynnja

    Gwynnja Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2007
    Messages:
    2,010
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    CA
    My only issue re: Hammer Economy vs. Cottages; you build wealth to crank up the slider, right? But even if the slider is at 100% you still need to be generating some source of commerce. It's not like every city is going to have gold, or gems, or dye, or some other commerce heavy tile, so where are you getting your commerce?
     
  7. ColossusXXIII

    ColossusXXIII Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2010
    Messages:
    267
    Building wealth can be done for various reasons including running 100% slider most of the time. But also to fund expansion and military etc. Commerce is derived mainly from specs and trade routes, but also specials. post calendar many special tiles produce both extra gold and food, also watermills + windmills + water tiles. I know it doesn't sound like much, but it all adds up to quite a few beakers with a 100% slider. the beauty of the Hammer Economy is that you can take "marginal-bad" commerce terrain, work it to produce wealth then run 100% slider so that your actual "good" commerce cities can benefit from the 100% slider position. you can also build wealth so that you're actually creating a gold surplus even with a 100% slider. Usually for me keeping the slider high also acts a barometer as to how much I can afford to expand vs. the number of cities I need to produce wealth to cover the initial cost of my planned expansion whether it be military or peaceful. All while still maintaining a blazing tech rate. Building research is also beneficial sometimes... but slightly less versatile than building wealth.
     
  8. Gwynnja

    Gwynnja Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2007
    Messages:
    2,010
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    CA
    Commerce is NOT derived from specs. Commerce is derived from tiles and trade routes. And if you're going to be getting your commerce from "marginal-bad" commerce terrain, how does that make more sense than building cottages?
     
  9. ywhtptgtfo

    ywhtptgtfo Emperor

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2010
    Messages:
    1,419
    Ok...? I don't see how CE cannot do the same. Even if your economy relies on cottages, it doesn't mean you cottage ever single grassland tile. After all, a < 9 pop city can only work so many tiles. If recovery is an issue, then make a few grassland farms on tiles that are not yet being worked during peace time.

    Suppose a war is over and you want to regrow the pop, then work a few farm tiles until you hit happy cap. I don't see how that's different to HE.

    And I still don't see how that's different. In CE, you'd switch from cottages to mines (at least that's what I do). Unless you can show me how you can build wealth and units at the same time in a HE city, I am inclined to believe the opportunity costs are of similar nature.

    Personally, I usually settle places with at least 2 hills and 1 food source even if I mean to cottage all the grass tiles.
     
  10. TheWilltoAct

    TheWilltoAct I am observe

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2007
    Messages:
    1,874
    Location:
    Exiled from Fribbulus Xax
    Are you intentionally trying to confuse ColossusXXIII with your wording Gwynnja? He's no fool. The marginal-bad terrain isn't what he's working, he's working production tiles in those cities for :gold: to bolster research elsewhere. And I think you're playing with words too much, specialists can produce :science: or :gold: same as commerce so it's not a key point.
     
  11. ColossusXXIII

    ColossusXXIII Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2010
    Messages:
    267
    sorry, but don't merchant specs produce commerce or gold or whatever $$$ basically. When I say using "marginal-bad" commerce terrain, I mean cities with no natural commerce tiles etc. those cities i hammer up, and produce wealth if needed, otherwise units or buildings/failure gold take priority. It makes more sense than building cottages, because with good micro, you can do many more things in each individual city. This makes your economy more flexible and versatile. Hammer cities can make $$$, cottage cities can't make hammers (not well at least/or b4 US).
     
  12. Gwynnja

    Gwynnja Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2007
    Messages:
    2,010
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    CA
    I don't think Collossus was confused by my wording and I'm sorry if you were. That's not my intention. Nevertheless, beakers and gold are not the same as commerce. I'll try to break it down as simply as I can so that you understand: your empire generates commerce from working cottages, gems, riverside tiles, coast... anything that has a little gold coin on top of it, like this :commerce: That's what get's broken up by the slider into research/beakers, wealth/gold, culture, and espionage. When your slider is at 100% ALL your commerce is converted to research. Anything other than 100% breaks the commerce up, usually into gold in order to pay for units, city maintenance, and civics. By building wealth, it allows you to convert more of your commerce into research. However, commerce doesn't just appear out of thin air, it comes from tiles and trade routes, and by increasing your commerce, you increase your research. Are you with me? What I'm trying to figure out is where is the commerce coming from outside of cottages in the hammer economy. In a "Pure" specialist economy, commerce is virtually irrelevant because nearly all beakers are coming from specialists, but the hammer economy works by cranking up the slider to 100% so that all the commerce is converted into research. COMMERCE AND GOLD ARE NOT THE SAME THING. I hope that wasn't too difficult for you to understand.
     
  13. ColossusXXIII

    ColossusXXIII Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2010
    Messages:
    267
    The diff is that in a hammer heavy city vs. a cottage heavy city when at war, first off you have higher base production. This means faster unit production, also rather than cottages you would likely be working more farms. this means that whipping away citizens is less of an economic shock. And they grow back faster. The beauty of this is that supposing this city was producing wealth and now you turn it off to produce units/whip, you can simply alternate to another city and take over producing wealth there. Therefore the overall economic impact can be easily dampened through micro. This is possible because of the added versatility of a hammer heavy city, as it isn't locked into as many specific tiles to produce it's wealth.

    Imo 2 hills and 1 food source won't get you enough hammers to reliably put up infrastructure and armies quickly enough to be very effective. I would supplement the same exact city site you described with watermills/lumber mills/workshops instead of cottages.
     
  14. ywhtptgtfo

    ywhtptgtfo Emperor

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2010
    Messages:
    1,419
    There's an important distinction between gold and commerce - Gold is your money and commerce is something that can be turned to gold or research. Merchants make gold and so do not have a direct role in research (other than to keep slider up).

    Your reference to "natural commerce tiles" is ambiguous. What is a natural commerce tile? Trivially that'd be flood plains and river-side grass tiles. Plains, tundra, ice, and hills are most definitely not good cottage tiles and very few experienced CE practitioners actually cottage those. This basically leaves non-river-side grass tiles. What do we do with those? If this is SE, then it'd be farms. But since we are talking about HE, then the only thing that comes to mind is workshop. Until mid-late game (i.e. SP), workshops are pretty bad.
     
  15. ywhtptgtfo

    ywhtptgtfo Emperor

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2010
    Messages:
    1,419
    Watermills, lumber mills, and workshops only shine late into the game when SP and Replaceable Parts are teched. Most single player games are decided before Communism and most multi-player games are decided before Steel.

    As a rule of thumb, I don't cottage grass tiles after Communism. But in early game, I simply don't see how HE would work at all. Watermills and windmills come only at Machinery with very small initial bonuses. Pre-communism workshops can only be as good as mines and that even take a few techs to get there.

    I do see the power of workshops and watermills starting at Industrial Era, but I find it hard to work out a way to make them competitive to CE and SE for Ancient Era starts.
     
  16. ColossusXXIII

    ColossusXXIII Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2010
    Messages:
    267
    @ Gwynja

    Of course I know the difference between gold and commerce, but your explanation was good and entertaining none the less. Honestly in an HE usually there are more specs running, they produce raw beakers or raw gold which are multiplied by the appropriate buildings, but not affected by the slider. Rep is amazing for this and is available right around the time when changing over from an SE to an HE becomes highly desirable IMO. The ability of an HE city to quickly fill out it's infrastructure and produce units, combined with the ability to produce wealth efficiently let's you run the slider high and maximize your COMMERCE across the board. With the high slider all those little sources of income like trade routes add up to many more beakers than one would think. Especially with libr,unis etc.

    The difference is that a CE is more hard pressed to maintain the slider at 100% all the time and therefore doesn't max out it's use of all the little forgotten sources of commerce. A pure CE might produce more beakers overall than a pure HE or even a SE/HE, however that doesn't mean it will get you more WINS... Or that it makes for an overall better economic model. I feel like I've explained my stance to death, I'm sorry that you don't seem to understand what I'm saying...

    Anyhow, wasn't this thread about watermills and workshops?
     
  17. ColossusXXIII

    ColossusXXIII Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2010
    Messages:
    267
    decided? really? if you do really well early but flounder in the end game, you could easily lose (for example if you relied too heavily on cottages and can't keep up with late AI production). Or for that matter you can often compensate for a poor start with an impactful finish and still win. As far as MP goes I don't have much experience besides hot seats with some buddies who struggle at noble/prince. so not much xp there, but I do usually win around steel...

    My early game mostly consists of an SE which transitions into a strong HE later. Early He's are still viable as a hybrid with SE, or even stand alone, producing wealth.
    In the case where my pop outgrows my productive tiles like mines and I'm reaching happy cap (b4 watermills etc), I run specs or whip excess food.

    Me too, that's why early I'm running what you could call a very hammer heavy SE most times. I know it seems like they are opposing economic theories, but they have great synergy due to the food focus in both economic models.
     
  18. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2008
    Messages:
    25,713
    Mara gives a unit bonus stronger than a military academy in all cities to each civ, and also lengthens the time you have to finish wars (you are MUCH less likely to run into longbows 10 turns in while trying to move units/bombard for example, or later rifles). The marathon variance is so large that it's not even comparable to immortal/normal vs sitting bull, let alone the bad rush targets on deity.

    Show me how you get through 4+ archers with a 40% city bonus for less :hammers: than a single settler. God help you if they have metal + AGG or PRO, or the only nearby cities are on a hill. If you're not running this on normal speed consistently, you are NOT comparing apples to apples.

    You certainly can pre-late game. You need at least SOME sources of pre-currency gold/commerce and SOME way to push to caste/guild/chem + SP soon enough. That's a tall order if you don't have a superfood site. Hammer cities are indeed the most versatile, unless we're talking about US cottages + kremlin which with the gold multipliers out-performs just about any basic tile when converted to all-out production. Also since 100% wealth multipliers are available considerably before 100% hammer you even have a period where cottages can be stronger w/o kremlin.

    Also, a LOT of what you're arguing is based on "what I do" to this point, which is not particularly viable in a rigorous discussion of the relative strengths of the tile improvements; the more useful approach would be to do a strict returns (rate and amount) vs investments for the tile improvements based on situation. U_Sun for example has provided the forum a VERY good breakdown on cottages vs farms vs specs vs mines in the past, with strong #'s based evidence and even planning based on when major deity milestones come into play. Maybe I'll dig the thread up.

    Again, where are your #'s? I do agree that :hammers: are more valuable than :commerce: compared 1:1.

    However, throw down universal suffrage and without state property the production difference between a town and a watermill is what, 1 hammer? A rough approximation of tile value is 10:6:4, with 10 representing food, 6 hammers, 4 commerce. There's 0 way you are going to be able to justify a watermill-off civic beats a town on-civic, just like there's 0 way I can justify a non-US town over a SP watermill.

    Cottages are available much earlier though. Just like we have to consider cottage growth in evaluating its worth, we also have to consider alternative uses of a riverside tile over a cottage for the opening turns. A farm is arguably stronger than a cottage for 30 turns (10 if FIN).

    The only thing that full-civic workshops can do that full-civic towns can't is build projects...and if you think it's going to make a big difference outside an IW city and maybe 1 other good :hammers: city (which both empires would have) while building parts, you're nuts. $$$ buy and swiftly and soundly convert :commerce: (specifically :gold:) into :hammers:. At 2:food:1:hammers:7:commerce: + 100% :gold: multipliers, a town is extremely competitive with everything except SP caste/guild/chem workshops via converting cash to production. However, you get to blissfully ignore that caste is probably costing you :mad:. Actually, you don't. You have to come up with :) somehow, or drop a hammer and lose the competitive edge. That's not irrelevant.

    As for the pillaging argument, that's been a favorite of the pure spec tools for years. It's so unrealistic it's a joke. The way this game relies on stack combat and collateral initiative, you're telling me that you're going to come back from someone pillaging FLATLAND tiles in YOUR territory with NO DEFENSIVE BONUSES with you being UNABLE to swiftly and soundly spank the bejesus out of them for doing it? Are you really going to tell me that? If you're getting flatland tile improvements pillaged and can't prevent it, what makes you think you'll be around long enough to replace them?

    Surely you're not saying that the AI goes on devastating pillaging runs :lol:?


    Here is a link to the thread where U_Sun breaks down the tile improvement options:

    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=361324&highlight=cottage (Note for future people doing forum searches, be slightly creative and it's not hard to find things. It shouldn't take 15000 posts for someone to figure out how to find specific threads).

    Check out post #19. Notice that he, too, is anti-cottage SPAM, and for good reason. However, also note his response on page 2. There are often times where cottages are a good improvement choice. That does NOT mean someone is running some convoluted, dated-term "CE", but rather that they are using cottages in appropriate situations.
     
  19. ColossusXXIII

    ColossusXXIII Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2010
    Messages:
    267
    thanks :goodjob:

    Sorry by "natural commerce" I meant specials like gold, dye etc. water tiles, oasis etc.

    In HE- pre workshop, you still build a farm and run a spec or another mine/quarry/pasture/camp or whatever... over building a cottage in that spot.
    With the right use workshops are still good b4 SP. the only diff with SP is the food and the 10% production bonus. Guilds+chem+caste still yields enough hammers to not worry so much about the -1 food.
     
  20. ColossusXXIII

    ColossusXXIII Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2010
    Messages:
    267
    You took my statement out of context, I clearly said I have wins on normal speed, and know full well the difference between normal and marathon speed...

    the first city I usually attack is guarded by 2 archers (on normal, it's all I've been playing for 2-3 months now), 20% D-bonus. And no I couldn't take a 4 archer garrisson city with less hammers than a single settler. But what about the additional rewards of citizens to whip, capture gold, potential for wonders and shrines etc. also if you're facing 4 archers and 40% d bonus during an early rush, you are probably taking too long to start the rush. Cutting off metals is usually doable, and both agg and pro suggest a mistake in early target selection. Pro in particular...

    Nothing I ever suggest relies on any wonders... That being said in my last game, late running HE I captured both cristo redentor and the kremlin (thank you military production). after dropping my slider to 0% for a few turns while still building wealth in some cities, i was able to save up tons of gold and abuse the quick switching in and out of US and REP while rushbuying like crazy in newly captured cities. It was awesome. He combines very well with rushbuy in some cases.

    i agree the thread should be about tile improvements and not economies, we have been side tracked. i'm not interested in crunching numbers, and base my opinion on how well different things have worked for me. This without the raw data. Which i would welcome gladly.

    30 turns is a while at normal speed, wouldn't you agree?

    projects? really? what about tac nukes, wonders(not that many are left, but national), and expensive units? Can you really rush buy everything you need? quicker than making it? In many cities at once? Even if you say yes to all, A hammer economy is very well suited to build wealth and then rush buy as well, if that's what you really want...

    My tiles rarely get pillaged, flatland or otherwise. because I have tons of hammers devoted to military prowess, but that doesn't mean it never happens. They do however get destroyed by spies sometimes. Regrowing a town must suck, even from a village... For those who like to play with random events, the volcano is the cottager's nightmare.

    I certainly pillage, the Ai less so... OBVIOUSLY:goodjob: but there is Mp to consider, and the Ai still does pillage, when it can. Despite how bad it is....

    Thanks for the link, I'm glad you joined this discussion, as It has brought more balance to it. I agree that cottages "can" be a good tile improvement in the appropriate situation. However I mostly find ways around it, and as I progress in skill find cottages to be less and less necessary/optimal/versatile.
     

Share This Page