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Workshops and Watermills

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Theruss, Dec 19, 2010.

  1. vicawoo

    vicawoo Chieftain

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    It's very difficult to get most of your cities at their ideal size for running specialists "in time" let's say for a golden age switch, hence farms.

    Having to run hereditary rule hurts cottages, but it also hurts high food cities if you don't aggressively split up the food. But then the new cities need granaries and time to grow, and you're back to the farm problem.

    Farms often have more happiness cap problems than cottages. Cities with "too much food", it's often better to scale back from farms to cottages, or all the way to mines. You can run the slider, but evidently even hammer economy enthusiasts do appreciate their trade routes, and they may not want to crank it up too high.

    Multiple great person farms are only inefficient if they don't produce a great person, or if the multipliers (actually the great person costs) are so poor that you'd get more out of using the population on other things. A marginal city that eventually produces a great person is efficient, so long as you switch them off after you pop it.
     
  2. ywhtptgtfo

    ywhtptgtfo Emperor

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    This thread is about HE and not SE. We should try to stay on topic.
     
  3. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    If you're going to call someone out on what a thread is about, you should first know what the thread is about yourself.

    Show me where OP was asking about HE? He's asking about 2 improvements, and to evaluate their truth worth you have to do so against their opportunity cost. You're way more off topic than the preceding posts.
     
  4. ywhtptgtfo

    ywhtptgtfo Emperor

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    I meant to say Cottage vs. Mills and Workshop. The previous posts I was referring to talked about GPP's. For compactness, I wrote HE and SE. You can scrutinize my term usage however you like, but my point's pretty clear. I am not trying to accuse people of derailing a topic, but there are already threads about SE-related issues.
     
  5. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Nevertheless, no tile improvement exists in a vacuum, and neither does its application. Shops and mills are only worthwhile improvements the OP should consider if the off the highest cost/benefit. There's no getting around the need to consider cottages, farms, windmills, etc when evaluating the importance of shops/watermills. They're extremely strong tile improvements, but only if you're using them properly/right situation. Hopefully, through digging through the discussion people have a slightly better picture of when to use what improvement.
     
  6. Alamankarazieff

    Alamankarazieff Warlord

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    Location:
    Avignon, France
    There's an aspect that you don't seem to factor in the maths about cottages and the rest, is that +1 commerce doesn't mean the same thing at any level of the game.
    I've been butting my head to manage to do early starts without crashing my economy at emperor (which I know for many of you is the kindergarten sandbox), until I realized that when you have somewhere between 10 and 15 bpt, +1 commerce can almost be an improvement by 10%, whereas +1 hammer doesn't change everything all that much.
    I've been watching Kossin's Hatchepsout deity game, and he emphasized the need to connect your new cities to your trade network somewhere between immediately and now. Why ? To get this precious +1 or +2 commerce which in the early game means a lot.
    I've tried completely ignoring cottages, trying to tech my way up to currency so my hammers can do the job only through scientists, and I've either been unsuccessful or inordinately slow.
    It seems to me that there is no stress on food and production : it's a simple growing curve, the more you have, the better.
    But it's not so for commerce : there is a breakdown point, a threshold of sustainability that you need to reach before you can get in the comfort zone where you can start toggling around scientists and building research or gold.
    And I may be talking out my derrière, but it seems that a few of early cottages, on a commerce poor map (no gold, silver or gems) goes a long way in reaching that threshold.
     
  7. yanner39

    yanner39 Emperor

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    I agree with you. But you are proving the point that one of the best tips I've learned since coming here is "Play the Map". I mean, I read threads where some have said that REXxing is the way to go and you should have x amount of cities by 1AD or +100 beakers by 1AD, etc...All the good players that offer advice say the same thing: Play the map.

    Personally, as much as I like the HE and subsequent use of Workshops/Watermills, I do and will keep laying down early cottages to try and get a tech edge IF I have very little commerce resources ie gold or gems, dyes or silk, etc...

    And you know what, as some have mentioned before, some would not hesitate to mow down towns for workshops if it is required at that time. Late game, I usually have too many workers hanging around. Nothing wrong with pre-building workshops and watermills until the appropriate techs/civics come into play.
     
  8. ColossusXXIII

    ColossusXXIII Warlord

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    Thanks, I often find myself waiting for hydro plants in river cities. But that's a good point, I could have easily had a coal plant there long before and you are right the -health is pretty easy to overcome... Even if it's only 20 extra turns with a coal plant, the extra hammers are worth the unhealthiness i guess.
     
  9. ColossusXXIII

    ColossusXXIII Warlord

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    It seems like you've learned a lot from this thread. play the map is the best advice possible... In order to be able to play the map you need experience with many different strategies. The most important step in playing the map (IMO), is being able to read it properly and then apply your knowledge to it. In other words you gotta be good first, then you can start playing the map.
     
  10. ColossusXXIII

    ColossusXXIII Warlord

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    hmmm... In my experience just 4 early cities (pre currency) running 2 scientists each= 24bpt independent of the slider... that plus all the other sources of commerce,gp's and trades(map dependent), usually add up to a juicy tech rate IMO. Certainly enough to get alphabet, then you can supplement by building research until currency. a

    On a very commerce poor or iso start, cottages could be extremely useful if you have the right terrain. That being said a commerce poor, iso start, with bad terrain almost never happens... but when it does, be ready for a tough game no matter what approach you take. Even just one of those 3 variables being true can pose a great challenge. I personally haven't won an iso start since civ 2 or 3... but then again I haven't had many iso starts either.
     
  11. TheWilltoAct

    TheWilltoAct I am observe

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    If building a coal plant makes your city starve, then it's not worth it of course. One quick fix is adopting Environmentalism!
     
  12. vicawoo

    vicawoo Chieftain

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    Plains mines are about the same as library scientists (3.75), so early on you're probably just going to run specialists until you run out of spots, assuming you've built a library. The "hammer economy" part supplements the specialists.
     
  13. ywhtptgtfo

    ywhtptgtfo Emperor

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    1 plain mine requires 2 grassland farms to support. So that's 6 food + 4 hammers per 3 tiles or 1.33 hammer tile. While it is comparable to a scientist, specialists have the added advantage of GPP.
     

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