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World Congress is silly

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by MacCoise, Mar 13, 2019.

  1. MrRadar

    MrRadar Chieftain

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    I only find some of the aspects of this congress silly, like it starting in Medieval when I do not know half the people yet.

    However, I like it much more than Civ V version just because it acts here considerably less like World Police or some Chief Headmaster whose word is unbreakable law. On what authority, if I may ask? I did not volunteer to join, I was just dragged into the General assembly hall by some scary force against my will and told to put some x'es on some piece of paper, and as a result my people can no longer enjoy a healthy crab? Now THAT is silly.

    These resolutions are much more situational, but I had some very suitable ones passed for accelerated troop or buildings production. Not crucial, but handy. Much more difficult to impose an all-out embargo.
    I think this version of Congress by no means is final and will be adjusted in future patches.

    Getting back to obligatory membership, maybe here could be some way for improvement. Come certain time, Medieval or whatever, some special building or wonder requirement to build, perhaps, anything else, the first guy to fulfil it, founds the Congress and invites the ones they know. Others join in eventually on meeting them, or opt out. There should be perks of membership, and certain downsides as well - you gain some, you lose some. Votes for member exclusion, sanctions, etc., etc. Ways to defy, circumvent, prevaricate, such kind of thing.

    As for proposals, the DF could be used during to the run-up turns to the actual session, to prepare it. Civs could spend their DF to push the agenda they care about to be put for the vote. There could be a list of options and two or three of them to collect most DF points are put on the table and everyone votes with ONE vote. Or by applying some other convoluted vote weighing mechanism.
    More work for coders, but much more enjoyment for scheming players.

    Special note on Aid Emergencies: there simply must not be a possibility to win Aid Emergency by having paid grand total of 1 gold coin in aid, when you're the sole participant (or not). The party calling for aid should ask for a certain amount, somehow determined considering the damage done, and then the project should run along the same principles as World Fair or World Games in Civ V - you go in blind, and it ends as soon, as the necessary aid amount is collected, and not for 30 turns no matter what. Because as it is now, it is really silly.
     
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  2. Council 13

    Council 13 Chieftain

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    Great idea, hastily and poorly implemented. Like many features in the game so far.
     
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  3. Vandlys

    Vandlys Chieftain

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    It's really quite late, so I might not be seeing something entirely clearly, but shouldn't I, Kristina) have won this vote? The winning vote is A: Launch Exoplanet Expedition, with 3 (?) votes. I put 5 votes to delay the launch earth satellite project. What's up with that?
    Also, how are ties accounted for? I've won and lost multiple ties in the World Congress. To me a tie-break without any notification, debate, or struggle, doesn't make any sense..

    20190314234147_1.jpg
     
  4. TheMarshmallowBear

    TheMarshmallowBear Benelovent Chieftain of the BearKingdom

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    Proposal A won, because it got more votes. Which voids your votes completely. If you spent 3 more votes on it, then you'd win, It's which side has more votes, not who has the most influence

    It's only within which target from the proposal outcome, does it go tot he majority per Civ. And only in the event of ties. So you might have spent 10 votes, but if overall 11 votes were cast in a different Target then the different Target wins.
     
  5. Zinowolf

    Zinowolf Chieftain

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    The way it has been implemented is much more inferior to CIV 5. Personally, I find it more of an annoyance and it doesn't appear to be very meaningful in game.
     
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  6. Vandlys

    Vandlys Chieftain

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    Wait, THAT's how it works? So if 7 people vote for A, but all for a different version of A, and 6 people vote for the same version of B, the winner is A?! That's.... wow... I don't see the logics behind such a system..

    It's especially frustrating because the AI works against itself, voting for a quicker construction of space race projects, even though only one person (Germany in this game) is ready for such constructions. The rest doesn't even have space ports yet.

    I've played 1600+ hours of Civ VI, but slowly these AI quirks become really infuriating.
     
  7. FenrisWolf456

    FenrisWolf456 Chieftain

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    It's why I would have preferred a two session vote. One to decide whether the overall A or B side of the proposal will be decided upon, and then a second vote on what the actual effects of A or B are. So in your example, the first vote would be to decide whether a project will receive 100% production or -50%. Then those votes are tallied and you find out that the As have it. A second vote then decides on just what project will get that 100% boost. I feel this will make it more engaging for the player, to at least feel they have a greater hand in deciding on how a proposal will play out; to make the best out of a situation that didn't go their way to start.

    And the AIs need to have some preferences encoded into their voting to help vary up the outcomes. Patterns are already emerging where you know virtually all the AI are going to vote one way (i.e., 100% production to City Centre buildings, half-cost on Faith spending) so unless you can outvote the bulk of the rest of the congress, there's no point casting votes otherwise.
     
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  8. tedhebert

    tedhebert Chieftain

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    Had a funny thing happen in my current game which makes me suspect the world congress is not playing fair ;-(

    I have co-lead in science with sweden, but she beelined rocketry and has better producing cities than me, so she got spaceport and launch satellite done before i finished my first spaceport. No one else has even researched rocketry yet.

    We get a WC vote that I hadn't seen before, that gives double prod for a specific city project that you choose.

    Well believe it or not, 6 civs voted for launch moon landing, when only sweden can even do it !!!

    It's not going to matter because I,m going to win either dom or CV way before she can get to SV, but it still made me a little mad I must admit !
     
  9. FenrisWolf456

    FenrisWolf456 Chieftain

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    I feel that the timing is mostly fine. I just think that you should at least meet all the civs you hadn't already (much like in V where you would be introduced to all the missing civs in quick succession). You don't get any map reveal or anything, just who the civs are. It does seem silly that you are deciding on world proposals and you don't even know half the people you are discussing this with.

    Not sure what you mean here. this is the same for VI. Once the World Congress shows up, you're forced to sit down and vote on things, and be affected by the outcomes. Though you can relax and be assured that your love of crabs can no longer be taken away from you as they are no longer a Luxury.

    I pretty much agree that this should be a thing in some form. There should be a way to opt out, so that you no longer receive the benefits of votes or be a direct victim of negative ones (other than those that impose on actions of the AI, such as perhaps a trade embargo on the opted out civ so that member nations can't trade with them). You would also be opting out of the Diplomatic Victory path (much like opting out of getting a religion means you're out of the Religious Victory path).

    And perhaps a way to be ousted out of the Congress if you pile up too many grievances or too quickly. This would alleviate the Domination path being one that gets too much DF from winning various emergencies against it.

    I haven't seen a single participant Aid Mission yet, but would agree that there should be some minimum amount that needs to be achieved for it to be successful, perhaps dependent on the severity of the disaster. I also feel that there should be a bit of a rebalance between the gold and project amounts. A few turns of dedicated production feels like it should be worth more than just gifting 50 gold.

    I am not sure that the Civ V model could be adopted here. For V you could run the project continuously to accumulate points. In VI, projects have a finite cost with a final reward for completion. Not saying it couldn't be implemented, but they would be fundamentally different from current projects.
     
  10. bonafide11

    bonafide11 Worker

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    In my current game, I had a flood and so civs passed an Aid Emergency for me. I forgot about it, and It took me a while to figure out why every turn random civs were offering me like 5 gold plus 2 gpt as gifts. It ended up adding up to a decent amount. It was a bit silly how it worked though.
     
  11. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

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    Gee whizz. Really different opinions here.

    I really think the current WC is much better than previous versions. It does still have some rough edges, but the basic premise is much better.

    Having random proposals is much much better than having players / AI proposing resolutions (Ban Crabs. Ban more Crabs). I think what's letting the system down is just that (1) some of the resolutions need tweaks to be more meaningful and to have more flavour, (2) the "targeting" mechanic is whack - FXS need to just get rid of it, even that means adjusting some of the resolutions, (3) we need more and better emergency resolutions, given it's the emergency resolutions which are in effect the player initiated proposals.

    Medieval is the right time for the WC to start, both historically and gameplay-wise. I think the problem is just the WC doesn't have a trigger and / or conditions for joining (you really shouldn't be able to participate until you've research Diplomatic Service). I think There also needs to be some point where the WC "upgrades" into the United Nations. Having the WC just "start" is way too jarring.
     
  12. MrRadar

    MrRadar Chieftain

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    Yeah, technically it is still the same - you're dragged into the Congress whether you want it or not, and the outcomes are still inescapable; what I wanted to say was that now there are far fewer really annoying options and they have a high chance simply not to pass. And if you're really not interested in voting, you are free not to spend any DF. So the congress is much more on the 'good cop' side, at least it feels so :)


    Here:

    Isn't this just another exploit?
    No wonder the bro wasn't amused and joined the Chinese city liberation emergency against me while this joke was still going on.

    Yes, that would be a deviation from current model for other projects, but that would be at least more interesting. World Fair and World Games were the only good elements of the V's congress, excellent even. Well, there was ISS as well, but it comes so late I probably never had a chance to take part in that one.

    In any case, the option for simple gold gifts count as aid should be removed as easily exploitable. Or there could be an opportunity to build special humanitarian aid caravan units and one should move them to the disaster stricken city manually, but with current pathfinding AI would be doomed with them again. :(
    Well, aid projects only, then.
     
  13. Elhoim

    Elhoim Iron Tower Studio Dev

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    The resolutions are the worse part of the WC. Only a few of them are interesting.

    Emergencies and competitions are very cool.
     
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  14. shmily_dana

    shmily_dana Chieftain

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    I had an emergency against me for capturing a City state. I did not want to keep it. I was going to lose it to loyalty in a few turns. I moved my units out, so it would flip sooner. But then the emergency hit. I would have released it, if that was an option. Once the emergency started, I had full loyalty of the city. The AI never came close to taking the city. I used the war as an opportunity to take a few more cities from Hungary.
     
  15. FenrisWolf456

    FenrisWolf456 Chieftain

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    I had meant I hadn't personally seen it in my games so far. I think all the aid missions have had at least 3 civs involved.

    I'm not sure you could call it an exploit in the regular sense. You can't manufacture the situation. You need a random event to trigger a random chance to create the aid request proposal. Then you need to have the game situation be that no one else joins the actual emergency. Once it does happen, then yes, it's certainly exploitable.


    I actually prefer the new system, in that there are usually multiple ways to be able to contribute to the emergency/competition. Civ V had just diverting your production, and I wouldn't want a return to just that for VI. I just think the balance is off between gold amounts and production via projects. I suppose the thought is that the production only impacts you, whereas the gold goes directly to the gifted player, so it is not just a loss for you but a gain for a rival.

    But I rather like the idea of producing a unit that will then generate points/turn for you once at the disaster city. The only issue would be 1 upt and potential spamming. Though working like a trade unit could alleviate that.
     
  16. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    I know it is not accurate but my steam account now shows 5000 hours and I find these quirks both funny and sad now.
    I now hate it when AI reach the medieval because the time spent in these invasive screens is oppressive
    I want a button at the bottom that says “throw your chair across the room and resign from congress”

    I have seen these same friggin votes go the same way so often that it is not even a vote anymore, you just know the outcome.

    World games in V was cool, I did feel like I was competing. GPP? Well it is not rocket science that I know I am seriously outstripping everyone and know I have won before I start.... not that I want the favour. I have too much gold as it is and really CBA selling it.

    Emergencies may have been useful if they had been in the ancient era... TBH did they really send aid before the 1970’s?

    This system is worse than grievances, a toothless system that replaced a pointless one. At least neither of them was so in your face.

    I wanted a warmonger type congress vote where a warmonger suffered for their sins... things like CS you are not suzerain of provide no benefit to you... that would be crippling.
    Real trade embargo... no merchants to civs or non suze CS.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2019
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  17. Kwami

    Kwami Chieftain

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    The most annoying part of the current implementation is when the game tells me what the Congress is going to vote soon, but clicking on the icon doesn't do anything because I'm not party to the vote. I'd rather just not see the icon, really!
     
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  18. lordhaw

    lordhaw Chieftain

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    The whole thing is a vehicle for diplomatic victory points in the end. If I can have a decent amount of diplomatic favour voting for victory points is easy. Participating in emergencies to get a point is also easy, especially the disaster emergencies. Just dump in a 1000 gold and you have it in the bag usually, at least on King. Though in my current game Rome is giving me actual competition on these. And of course the recapture a city emergencies are a bit odd considering you are technically recapturing on another's behalf but really in the end you just end up being the new owner with no consequences at all for you not giving it back. In my current game Gilgamesh is still happily allying with me even though I have two cities I took in emergencies that were his. Almost all the resolutions I just put in the free point to do the motions as they are largely worthless to me. I don't know, I like the system better than in Civ V but there's no feeling of consequence. I should take some sort of hit for not giving cities back like not getting rewards or something. The matters you are voting on seem rather frivolous for the most part. But I do like the system much better just not how it's used.
     
  19. kaspergm

    kaspergm Warlord

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    I can follow some of the reasoning for the designs made in the WC. The idea that you haven't got a fixed number of votes to dominate every vote is sympathetic, as it was rather easy to abuse in Civ5. The fact that world projects like World Games etc. offer much smaller rewards than the broken benefits in Civ5 (+100 % culture/tourism for 20 turns ... lolwut?) is also sympathetic. The idea behind random resolutions to prevent run-away benefits probably also has some merit.

    However, on the bottomline, the WC has one huge problem, as others have also pointed out: It's just not fun.

    Between the obscure voting system and the often inconsequential resolutions, most of the time I just find myself thinking "whatever" and cast my one free vote in whatever direction seems least detrimental, knowing that it'll probably go another way no matter what I vote.

    That being said, with a change in the voting system and a tweaking of some resolution, it does have some potential to improve over time. And I do enjoy the times I've pulled a vote for an extra wildcard slot for my government.
     
  20. BarbarianHunter

    BarbarianHunter Chieftain

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    I think I'm in the minority here in that I actually like the thing. It's not the end all be all game changer but does add in a few more variables to consider. I was playing a game and noted that production was voted to 50% off, then I realized I was about to start a war with Scythia! If not for the strategic resource requirements that'd have been an unlimited supply of 4:1 light cav. If could have gotten ugly.
     

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