World Cup 2006 - Qualifying Groups

[phoenix_night]

Originally posted by col
He played for England up to the age of 18. Then switched to Wales. Reputedly when he fell out with his (english) father and switched to his mothers country.

Wrong.

He played for England Schoolboys. You are perfectly eligible to play for the schoolboy team of the nation in which you live (and so attend school), but not to represent them at a higher level. The reason being the criteria at that level is not of nationality, but of where you go to school.

Ryan Giggs has on many occasions stated his frustration concerning the "could've played for England" statements which are simply wrong.

Ryan Giggs:

"The problem came because I played for England Schoolboys. But that was because I went to school in England, no other reason, that was the criteria for selection, not where you were born. What has bugged me more than anything in my career is to keep on hearing people say I chose to play for Wales. I still hear it, people discussing it on the radio even now, it's very, very annoying for me. It's the question that has bugged me most for the last 10 years or so. I am Welsh, 100%. End of story. Both my parents and all my grandparents are Welsh. It's as simple as that, it's impossible for me to play for England."

 

[col]

I've read this too.

However I've read other quotes from him too from several years back that indicate that he hasnt always held this view.

 

[phoenix_night]

What? So he used to think his parents/grandparents were English?



Sorry, col, but Ryan Giggs could not have played for England, it's as simple as that.

 

[Mega Tsunami]

George best and Ryan Giggs – two great Manchester United players who were unlucky enough (from an English point of view) not to qualify for England. Think how great they were/are and how greater they would have been IMO if they had gone to numerous European Championships and World Cups with England. Still, if you aren’t qualified to play for England then that’s the way the cookie crumbles. You play for the country you come from, end of story.

Sigh…

PS It could have been worse – Giggsy very nearly joined Man City

 

[phoenix_night]

@Mega Tsunami,
Could you perhaps rephrase that? At the moment it implies that Ryan Giggs is unlucky not to be English. Try and make it clear that it is you (English) who are unlucky, not Ryan Giggs himself. Someone could easily take offence...

 

[Hitro]

Who would voluntarily want to play for England when he can escape to Wales?

 

[Stapel]

Originally posted by phoenix_night
@Mega Tsunami,
Could you perhaps rephrase that? At the moment it implies that Ryan Giggs is unlucky not to be English. Try and make it clear that it is you (English) who are unlucky, not Ryan Giggs himself. Someone could easily take offence...

Ryan Giggs may consider himself unlucky, as he never played on a great tourney. And probably never will .

And that is because he plays for Wales....

Then again, if I would be a brilliant player, and my only chance to get to a tourney would be playing for Germany....

No really cool way!

 

[col]

Giggs certainly could have played for England - he was qualified by virtue of the length of time he had lived there. Players become eligible after 5 years residential qualification. Thus Owen Hargreaves was eligible to play for Germany, for example.
Its often said Giggs wasnt eligible for England mistakenly.

Ryan Giggs says that he would rather play for Wales without success than turn out in the white of England.

Giggs is a former England schoolboy international, but he told reporters that he has never had any desire to go on to win full England honours.

The 28-year-old was born in Cardiff but moved to Manchester with his family when he was a boy.

He would almost certainly be a first choice if he had decided to play for England given the lack of left-sided English players.

He could have chosen to play for England but chose Wales in preference.

 

[Mega Tsunami]

Originally posted by phoenix_night
@Mega Tsunami,
Could you perhaps rephrase that? At the moment it implies that Ryan Giggs is unlucky not to be English. Try and make it clear that it is you (English) who are unlucky, not Ryan Giggs himself. Someone could easily take offence...

I meant England were unlucky.

I suppose however, without meaning to, I perhaps implied he was unlucky not to be English – but no more than being unlucky enough not to be Italian or French (and by that I only mean in terms of playing in EC and WC)

If he feels he is Welsh, whether or not he also qualifies for England is irrelevant.
(Although I agree with col, if he wanted to, he could have played for England having lived here since he was 7)

 

[phoenix_night]

There is an agreement between the home nations' FAs regarding players holding a British passport. A player with a British passport shall be eligible to play for a country only if: he was born there; his parents/grandparents were born there.

 

[col]

FIFA's rules are the only ones that matter. That 'gentleman's agreement' would be overturned rapidly if necessary.

 

[phoenix_night]

Originally posted by col
FIFA's rules are the only ones that matter. That 'gentleman's agreement' would be overturned rapidly if necessary.

You could say the same about any country. All it takes is for a country to grant citizenship/naturalised status to a player and they can play for the country internationally. Therefore it isn't unique to Giggs at all, or even players from the UK, theoretically.

And it's more than simply a "gentleman's agreement". It's a formalised agreement specifically dealing with the issue of national qualification within the UK - it sets the regulations and it's not simply a means for England to control the other FAs.

Fact is: Giggs couldn't have played for England if he had wanted to (which he didn't). Despite the fact that many claim he could've because of: being from Manchester - which he isn't; having English ancestry - which he doesn't; or any other "actually English" arguments (which I actually saw on "Goals on Sunday" a while back, which was infuriating, I have to say).

 

[Stapel]

Originally posted by phoenix_night
Fact is: Giggs couldn't have played for England if he had wanted to (which he didn't). Despite the fact that many claim he could've because of: being from Manchester - which he isn't; having English ancestry - which he doesn't; or any other "actually English" arguments (which I actually saw on "Goals on Sunday" a while back, which was infuriating, I have to say).

A couple of years back, the Belgium team had several players that didn't have any connection with Belgium, except having lived there for some years.
Oliviera (Brazilian)
Weber (Hungarian I think)
Strupar (Croatian I think)
Edit: Scifo? Italian?

FIFA rules simply say you can only play for one national team ever. Pretty much regardless of where you live or where you are born.


@Col: Sorry for the misbehaviour. That wasn't really cool , I suppose. Took me while before I remembered what I did. It was pretty obvious I didn't do that on purpose rigth ?

 

[phoenix_night]

@Stapel,
The point being, as the UK is not a nation-state, the residency (and general qualification) regulations are somewhat different. For example, a Scot could live in England for five years, and not be eligible to represent them; though he could live in the Netherlands for five years (or whatever the time is, I'm not sure myself) and be eligible for them.

And of course, that means, that the only way Giggs could play for England would be with an English relative (what with him being born in Wales), which he doesn't have. Of course, he'd also have to want to play for England, which may have been an even bigger obstacle.

 

[col]

If a scot had never played for Scotalnd but had lived in England for 5 years he would be eligible to play for England if he were slected and if he wanted to accept. FIFAs rules take prededence for the purpose of internationals. Once you play for any country at senior level, you cant play for anyone else.

There was discussion that Owen Hargreaves might be selected for germany. He was promptly picked for Englands next match to seal his 'nationality'.

The home countries are not legally allowed to impose their own rules over and above FIFA. Courts have decreed this as a restrictive practise post Bosman and the home countries would be powerless to stop it.

Of course all this is indeed moot. Giggs was born in Cardiff of welsh parents and d had no wish to ever play for anyone but Wales at senior level.

But someone else in his place could have decided otherwise and Wales would be powerless to prevent him from residentially qualifying for anyone else.

 

[Lambert Simnel]

Sure, Col, but on that basis there are hundreds of Scots, Irish and Welsh players who "could" play for England. The fact you picked Giggs initially was due to a misconception on your part about the ancestry of his parents; it was this misconception which Phoenix picked up on.

Personally, I've made it a rule of thumb always to diagree with Phoenix (), but I think this time the gist of his initial correction was right.

 

[Stapel]

Originally posted by phoenix_night
@Stapel,
The point being, as the UK is not a nation-state, the residency (and general qualification) regulations are somewhat different. For example, a Scot could live in England for five years, and not be eligible to represent them; though he could live in the Netherlands for five years (or whatever the time is, I'm not sure myself) and be eligible for them.

And of course, that means, that the only way Giggs could play for England would be with an English relative (what with him being born in Wales), which he doesn't have. Of course, he'd also have to want to play for England, which may have been an even bigger obstacle.

@Phoenix:
The FIFA doesn't care a shilling about the UK and its 4 FAs. They simply allow anyone to play for any country, but never more than 1 country (country on FA level that is). The only demand they have is that there is some link: either born there, either living there for x years, either having ancestors.

I am 100% sure FIFA would allow Ryan Giggs to play for England, if he hadn't played for Wales.

Apart from that: this indeed is no issue. Just as I would never even think about playing for Germany, Ryan would not play for England.


Another remark / question. I have been to Wales twice, but don't remember having seen any football fields, whereas there seem to be more rugby fields than churches....
EDIT: I just realise that a rugby goal can be used as a football goal... Never mind!

Is Welsh nationalism linked to football much?
If England plays vs Holland in an important match, and Wales is not dependent in any way from the result, whom would you support?

 

[col]

Originally posted by Lambert Simnel
Sure, Col, but on that basis there are hundreds of Scots, Irish and Welsh players who "could" play for England. The fact you picked Giggs initially was due to a misconception on your part about the ancestry of his parents; it was this misconception which Phoenix picked up on.

Yes, you and Phoenix are right about his parents. . I was repeating what had been listed and quoted in interviews elsewhere which is why I said 'reputedly' but Giggs himself says differentl these days.

Its certainly is true that there are indeed hundreds of players in the premiership eleigible for England. Usually people are interested in eligibility for Scotland Wales or Ireland because there are so many players eligible for England and (on world rankings at any rate) England are a stronger team. This means that many players who would never otherwise become internationals have a chance with one of the other teams.

What made Giggs special - and the reason why the discussion takes place - is that everyone recognises he would have been an automatic choice for the left side of Englands team - which has lacked such a player for a long time. It has been said that he couldnt have played for England which is not true and I wanted to argue with.

He is probably the only player in the current Scottish, Welsh or Irish sides that would be an automatic choice for a UK side - but maybe that should be another thread

 

[phoenix_night]

Originally posted by col
If a scot had never played for Scotalnd but had lived in England for 5 years he would be eligible to play for England if he were slected and if he wanted to accept. FIFAs rules take prededence for the purpose of internationals. Once you play for any country at senior level, you cant play for anyone else.

It has nothing to do with switching nationalities.

Originally posted by col
There was discussion that Owen Hargreaves might be selected for germany. He was promptly picked for Englands next match to seal his 'nationality'.

Again, this discussion has nothing to do with switching nationalities.

Originally posted by col
The home countries are not legally allowed to impose their own rules over and above FIFA. Courts have decreed this as a restrictive practise post Bosman and the home countries would be powerless to stop it.

It's nothing to do with imposing their own rules over FIFA. The member states deal with citizenship and naturalisation and not FIFA. FIFA do not determine when a player legally switches nationality. The previously mentioned ruling exists in the UK simply due to the complications of the lack of an independent state for each nation (i.e. no such thing as Welsh, English etc. citizenship).

Originally posted by col
Of course all this is indeed moot. Giggs was born in Cardiff of welsh parents and d had no wish to ever play for anyone but Wales at senior level.

Yes.

Originally posted by col
But someone else in his place could have decided otherwise and Wales would be powerless to prevent him from residentially qualifying for anyone else.

If "anyone else" refers to a country outside the UK, then I agree; otherwise, I do not.

 

[phoenix_night]

Originally posted by col
He is probably the only player in the current Scottish, Welsh or Irish sides that would be an automatic choice for a UK side - but maybe that should be another thread

Yeah, because you have Emile Heskey up front...