World Cup 2010 Final!

[Niessuh]

For those accusing Iniesta of diving, a video is worth a thousand words:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0ATB32MOcg&feature=player_embedded

 

[El Koeno]

Don't know what games of football has Cruijff been seeing lately. Maybe he didn't watch the first leg of that Inter-Barcelona semi. Or how peekaboo Busquets got Motta sent off in the 2nd. And the Netherlands have played 6 more games in the WC where people have been able to see how they play, and what are their strengths and weaknesses. Finally, as for accusations of lack of sportsmanship everyone knows how van Bommel plays the game and that Robben is one of the most prolific divers in world football, if not the most.
Not that it justifies anything, but if Cruijff is fuming at how surprised he was to see the type of game the final was, then he mustn't have been paying attention.

Robben might have been. He showed last night that he's not all about that. Should he have fallen, Puyol would have gotten his second yellow, but he opted to go for goal instead. Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets on the other hand? But of course we're not to talk about that. Their diving is okay.

Plus, if the match was so hard, why haven't I seen stretchers on the field? I mean, I'm not entirely proud of Holland, but I really can't understand the outrage. Do these people watch Champions League matches? They're usually not a friendly affair. And I'm sure Cruijff (who should either stop complaining or accept the job as national coach for once) remembers Holland-Brazil 1974. Which was supposed to be a really harsh game.

 

[Esckey]

The Spanish soccer team did deserve the win, but the Spanish fans don't deserve it. You won through skill and a bit of luck but all you can do is complain about the reffing like you had lost the game due to a obviuosly bad call. You won be happy, stop complining.

 

[Arwon]

The Spanish soccer team did deserve the win, but the Spanish fans don't deserve it. You won through skill and a bit of luck but all you can do is complain about the reffing like you had lost the game due to a obviuosly bad call. You won be happy, stop complining.

I think you'll find it's been responsive to whining by the losing fans? Well some of it. A lot of it has also been observers who simply favoured Spain in this game.

 

[GinandTonic]

People will start thinking I want to change every football rules... but if it was possible to send off players only temporarily (let's say for 10 minutes), the referee wouldn't have hesitated that much in 1st HT. I can understand Webb's doubts. He didn't want to be remembered as "the guy who spoiled the final".

I agree that direct permanent exclusion adds more drama to the game. However, it's also true that temporary exclusions would be very handful for the referees.

The match being the final of the world cup really exacerbates the situation. If the ref sent three players off when Bolton decided to kick Arsenal off the ball most people wouldnt mind the price of one ruined match as the price of teaching the lesson. In the WC final the price of ruining the game with multiple reds is just too high - as implicit in Blatter's comments in support of Webb. Ohh god, I've agreed with Blatter on something... I feel dirty While in theory X is a yellow card offence, we all know there is a higher threshold for the second yellow (and several refs have been castigated for sending players off for technical second yellows). The dutch players knew and exploited both these factors. Add into this that once everyone is on yellows and they are still kicking and diving Webb is being forced more and more into a situation where he would be forced to send everyone off and kill the game :shrug:

So in the WC final a sin-bin would be very useful, but I'm sure we all agree that football needs one set of rules for all matches. Indeed mandating that whenever an "injury" requires a stop of play the injured player has to go off until the ball goes out of play isnt a million miles from the same idea, and we've all seen refs "forget" to order a player back on for a minute or two after a particularly cynical simulation. I'm not necessarily convinced that the complexity of introducing a sin-bin for every match at every level to improve the regulation of cup-finals is worthwhile. How would it work out in normal games or sunday league?

On a completely unrelated note why has there not been more outrage over Fabregas' outrageous dive? No-one came within a foot of him. He didnt even bother to kick his own foot. 100% cast iron dive.

 

[Arwon]

Fun fact: No Spanish player has ever taken a dive or committed a foul.

EVER.

 

[Truronian]

On a completely unrelated note why has there not been more outrage over Fabregas' outrageous dive? No-one came within a foot of him. He didnt even bother to kick his own foot. 100% cast iron dive.

I missed that... is there a clip?

 

[El Koeno]

For those accusing Iniesta of diving, a video is worth a thousand words:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0ATB32MOcg&feature=player_embedded

Or he just fell on a hard pitch, regardless the reason. Nah, he was fouled a quite a number of times, no doubt, but he also dived a lot.

 

[Red Door]

While history will say Spain became the champions, I think the Netherlands can leave with their heads held high. The red card was not deserved and Spain dives as much as Italy. At least the Dutch played honorably.

Honor:




Honor. Which World Cup have you been watching where the Dutch played honorably?

 

[MCdread]

People will start thinking I want to change every football rules... but if it was possible to send off players only temporarily (let's say for 10 minutes), the referee wouldn't have hesitated that much in 1st HT. I can understand Webb's doubts. He didn't want to be remembered as "the guy who spoiled the final".

I agree that direct permanent exclusion adds more drama to the game. However, it's also true that temporary exclusions would be very handful for the referees.

It would have to be specified very well what merits a penalty that is slightly above a yellow but under a red, otherwise it would bring more controversy and players could start taking advantage of that in situations where they'd have been sent off otherwise.
But it could be a good idea. In fact, I think that in order to start testing it with something, it might be an appropriate punishment for diving, for example.

 

[Takhisis]

But, remember that once a team gets whittled down to 7 players, the game ends there and then.
What would you do in a violent match if a few players were sent off for 10 minutes and temporarily reduced their team to 7 players? Would the game stop?

 

[ThERat]

At least the Dutch played honorably.

Good one

You mean as in committing honorable fouls and kicks etc? There was totally nothing honorable during the game except for the one instance when they passed the ball back to Spain after an interruption.
I remember vividly how Snijder didn't even do that during the Portugal - Netherlands game 4 years ago and got felled for that. They lost it during the last couple of years. Get back to playing 'civilized' football, please.

I sometimes go back and watch the Netherlands - Argentine game of 98, a truly remarkable game, that's what Dutch football used to be...

Those guys still defending the current style, please wake up. Do you want to be the new Germany of soccer? I thought you guys do not like us that much...

 

[azzaman333]

Link to video.

I like how Iniesta only starts going to ground after Heitinga takes his arm off his shoulder, and how he's back on his feet protesting to the ref less than a second later.

And some people think he doesn't dive

 

[Takhisis]

That's a clear dive, coupled with his foul against van Thuggel, I mean, van Bommel, would have meant he was sent off before his goal.

 

[Tomoyo]

But, remember that once a team gets whittled down to 7 players, the game ends there and then.

Isn't this referee's discretion? You can't start a match with seven or fewer, but you can certainly play one, with the permission of the referee...

Besides, if that were true, this might happen:

- Team A scores in third minute of final
- Team B tries to kick off and restart the game, but team A does not vacate the center circle.
- Referee cautions team A.
- Team A doesn't stop.
- Referee sends off four players on team A.
- Game over, team A wins?

 

[ThERat]

I watched that video and honestly, I can't tell as it zooms in too late. You know when you start to run and someone holds you, you trip no matter whether the guy takes off his hand. Heitinga should have known better being booked already.Van Bommel and Mr. Gong Fu de Jong should have been off the pitch before all that happened in the first place.

It's futile and makes every Dutch supported look like a sour grape and sore loser.

 

[Takhisis]

Isn't this referee's discretion? You can't start a match with seven or fewer, but you can certainly play one, with the permission of the referee...

Besides, if that were true, this might happen:

- Team A scores in third minute of final
- Team B tries to kick off and restart the game, but team A does not vacate the center circle.
- Referee cautions team A.
- Team A doesn't stop.
- Referee sends off four players on team A.
- Game over, team A wins?

Nnnope. I think you lose... let's see what the laws of the Game have to say about it:

Players
A match is played by two teams, each consisting of not more than eleven
players, one of whom is the goalkeeper. A match may not start if either team
consists of fewer than seven players.
(...)
Minimum number of players
If the rules of a competition state that all of the players and substitutes must be
named before kick-off and a team begins a match with fewer than 11 players,
only the players named in the starting line-up may complete the 11 upon their
arrival.
Although a match may not START if either team consists of fewer than seven
players, the minimum number of players in a team required for a match to
CONTINUE is left to the discretion of member associations. However, it is the
opinion of the International F.A. Board that a match should not continue if
there are fewer than seven players in either team.
If a team has fewer than seven players because one or more players has
deliberately left the field of play, the referee is not obliged to stop the match
and the advantage may be played. In such cases, the referee must not allow
the match to resume after the ball has gone out of play if a team does not
have the minimum number of seven players.​

Bolded for emphasis. Interesting choice of words there. An 'opinion' is legally non-binding, and so it's never FIFA's fault whatever the ref chooses to do.

I watched that video and honestly, I can't tell as it zooms in too late. You know when you start to run and someone holds you, you trip no matter whether the guy takes off his hand. Heitinga should have known better being booked already.Van Bommel and Mr. Gong Fu de Jong should have been off the pitch before all that happened in the first place.

It's futile and makes every Dutch supported look like a sour grape and sore loser.

(x-post edit) I supported neither, but the lack of sportsmanship showed by both teams -especially the karate orangemen- was appaling.

 

[azzaman333]

I watched that video and honestly, I can't tell as it zooms in too late. You know when you start to run and someone holds you, you trip no matter whether the guy takes off his hand. Heitinga should have known better being booked already.Van Bommel and Mr. Gong Fu de Jong should have been off the pitch before all that happened in the first place.

It's futile and makes every Dutch supported look like a sour grape and sore loser.

Robben didn't trip when Puyol was holding onto him.

And even though de Jong probably should've been sent off for that kick, I don't recall Van Bommel doing anything that warranted being sent off.

 

[Jos Ballenbak]

I watched that video and honestly, I can't tell as it zooms in too late. You know when you start to run and someone holds you, you trip no matter whether the guy takes off his hand. Heitinga should have known better being booked already.Van Bommel and Mr. Gong Fu de Jong should have been off the pitch before all that happened in the first place.

It's futile and makes every Dutch supported look like a sour grape and sore loser.

As far as I know every Dutch supporter on this forum has congratulated the Spanish on their victory, and their have been no sore loser comments. Spain deserved to win.

The ongoing discussion is more about the football being played then the outcome of the match. My opinion is that De Jong was the only one who needed to be sent off for his karate kick. The game was very rough with a lot of fouls on both sides. But it is a final, and you do want to win the biggest prize of them all. I am not justifying the right to foul when you are playing a final, but a lot more comes to mind when you see that big, gold, shiny cup. Even more so when you know 700 million people are watching and you could be legends in your homecountry. If I look back at the Germany game against Spain I would say they were too nice, everybody keeps talking about it being such a clean game and how wonderfull it was that it was such a clean game. Of course it would make sense to support fairplay, but a loss is a loss and I can't help myself but to think how the german players think about this themselves...
It is after all a semi-final, and for some the last WC.

You need to ask yourselves this: Is losing the World Cup final worth a fair game? Or is winning the World Cup worth a dirty game. For the fans the perception of this will always be different then when you are a player standing on the pitch. But please this is only a game with only human players so the fact that a lot of fouls were committed is not so strange after all.

And beside if we would all stick to the rules of football it wouldn't be such a fun game anymore, now would it.

 

[Inter4]

I heard someone once saying that the one in 1994 was the only penalty kick R. Baggio ever lost as a pro player. Is there any truth to that?

Regards .

Do you mean its the only penalty he missed as a pro or the only penatly shootout he lost?

"When Baggio was in the national team, Italy always left the World Cup at penalties: in 1990 against Argentina, in 1994 against Brazil, and in 1998 against France. Therefore, in the 16 world cup matches he played, Italy lost only one, which was Italy's opening game of USA 94 against Ireland."

1990 vs Argentina (semis), made his shot.
1994 vs Brasil (final), missed his shot.
1998 vs France (1/4 final) made his shot.


I'm sure he missed penalties in Serie A. I just cant remember a particular one.