World Peace Day

[joespaniel]

Originally posted by sysyphus
Because I don't have an exact answer doesn't mean you can claim that war IS the only solution. You have yet to convice me that war is an effective answer.

Complex situations require long complex solutions. Sorry to burst your bubble of the quick and easy answer, but that's life in a complex world.

How else are the UN madated resolutions to be enforced without the threat (or actual use) of force?

Saddam lost a war against a coalition of over 30 countries in 1991, and signed a cease-fire forcing him to accept conditions laid down by the UN.

All have been ignored, broken and disregarded.

Is he to be rewarded for this by saying "oh, well..."?

After the rape of Kuwait, should he be left in power and allowed to rearm for another try? Or be allowed to possibly give poison gas to a terror cell for use in New York or London? To build missles that can carry anthrax to Isreal and Saudi Arabia?

Were those UN resolutions just a joke in the first place, we didnt REALLY mean it?

It sends a clear message, much like the failed League of Nations in the 1930's that a determined agressor can indeed circumvent the authority of the democratic nations of the world, without fear of consequence.

Saddam proved he is not responsible nor trustworthy enough to leave to his devices.

What should be done about it?

 

[CurtSibling]

Originally posted by IceBlaZe
Well, Curt, Peace is the time between two wars as they say.

This is true.

 

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

Originally posted by sysyphus
Someday you'll have to learn the differencebetween the truth and your opinion.

I can only hope the inverse some day dawns on you.
You repeat the words of Munich almost to the letter.
"We don't support Hitler, we only want to avoid a terrible war".
Remember this, because if we fail to stop Saddam NOW, before he causes a disaster, it will haunt you.

Just as the war will do as well.

A war will remove Saddam, of that there is no doubt.

Just as the weastern papers play up any fringe group who opposes someone we don't like.

Gee, why don't we like Saddam?

They said nothing of the sort. All they say is they want an alternative to war. You have no right putting words in other people's mouths.

Again, the insult to inteligence.
So tell me, what is this "alternative"?
Inspections?

And you may recall that I was one who said you were fair in separating the two positions of poster and moderator. Just making sure that you saw me responding to you as poster

You needed worry, I never cross that line, people seem to be unable to grasp that.

You seem to like to label anyone with different views than you as a coward. New record please.

If the shoe fits...

You can have your say, again, I was one who spoke out for your right to speak. And I WILL call it spam, and just because I can't make it official doesn't mean it isn't.

Nonsense.
You simply refuse to see that your only helping Saddam with this.

Stick to facts. Anti-war does not equal Pro-Saddam.

Ah, but it does.
Peaceful methods have been tried for TWELVE YEARS.
When do they start working?
WHEN??????

If you need to paint people with opposing views with this sort of label, then perhaps "truth" isn't on your side after all.

I'm sorry you can't see it, but it changes nothing.

I yet to see a SINGLE anti-war person come up with a viable solution to this crisis.

People say Iraqi civilians will die.
Who is hiding among them?
Who is putting them at risk?
Who will use other humans to protect his backside?
The answer always comes up Saddam.

If you REALLY belive in peace and justice, get out and protest SADDAM HUSSEIN.

Until I see that, my opinion of the anti-war movement stands.

 

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

Originally posted by Cimbri
Yes the world is truly better off with more war.

I’m lost for words…

So am I.

You can so easily deny freedom to the Iraqis, because there will be a price to pay.

There ALWAYS is for freedom, it has to be earned, or it means nothing.

Peace isn't ALWAYS the way, because some men, like Saddam Hussein, ONLY react to force.

I have come to realize that, and I'm affriad many still don't understand, some men will never behave in society, and Saddam is one of those men.

 

[sysyphus]

Originally posted by Alcibiaties of Athenae
I can only hope the inverse some day dawns on you.

I am well aware already.

Originally posted by Alcibiaties of Athenae

You repeat the words of Munich almost to the letter.
"We don't support Hitler, we only want to avoid a terrible war".
Remember this, because if we fail to stop Saddam NOW, before he causes a disaster, it will haunt you.
A war will remove Saddam, of that there is no doubt.

I have plently of doubt.

Originally posted by Alcibiaties of Athenae

So tell me, what is this "alternative"?
Inspections? .

Negotiations. Coddling the Iraqi and Islam moderates.

Originally posted by Alcibiaties of Athenae


If the shoe fits... .

That's the problem. It doesn't.

Originally posted by Alcibiaties of Athenae


Nonsense.
You simply refuse to see that your only helping Saddam with this..

Whereas you're not helping anybody.

Originally posted by Alcibiaties of Athenae


If you REALLY belive in peace and justice, get out and protest SADDAM HUSSEIN.

Until I see that, my opinion of the anti-war movement stands.

The peace movement has, and rightfully so, considered it a given that we also oppose Saddam.

This "if you're not with us then you're for them" logic is faulty and self serving.

Quite frankly I think that both Saddam and Bush (as well as Phony Tony) are ar*eholes, and nobody can say different as to what I think.

And if it's open game on opinions, then consider the gloves off.

 

[joespaniel]

If you guys dont stop arguing, I will chain myself to the forums in protest.

 

[cgannon64]

Originally posted by joespaniel
If you guys dont stop arguing, I will chain myself to the forums in protest.

I'll go on a weight gaining strike. Stop the arguing, or I'll get fat!

 

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

Originally posted by sysyphus
I am well aware already.

Very good.

I have plently of doubt.

I can see that.

Negotiations. Coddling the Iraqi and Islam moderates.

As long as Saddam rules, you can't even determine who they are.

That's the problem. It doesn't.

We have an impass on this.
Let me remind you of a historical fact.
When Reagan bombed Libya in the 1980s, Kaddafi folded up the terror camps and quit openly supporting terror, like all bullies, when he saw force, he ran.
Bare that in mind.

Whereas you're not helping anybody.

A non-starter of a comment.
The Iraqis will be free.
Powell layed out the post war plan, it makes sense and will work.

The peace movement has, and rightfully so, considered it a given that we also oppose Saddam.

Where are the protests?
The demands he abide by human rights declariations of the UN charter?
None to be seen.

This "if you're not with us then you're for them" logic is faulty and self serving.

The self delusion of peace at any price is far worse then anything you could accuse me of.

Quite frankly I think that both Saddam and Bush (as well as Phony Tony) are ar*eholes, and nobody can say different as to what I think.

You may well be right, but I disagree with the US/UK part.

And if it's open game on opinions, then consider the gloves off.

As long as it doesn't get personal.

 

[Ancient Grudge]

i join joespaniel in his protest but wait wont matter as protestes dont do much......

 

[joespaniel]

Im getting out the Masterlocks...

 

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

Originally posted by joespaniel
If you guys dont stop arguing, I will chain myself to the forums in protest.

Quiet, or I'll issue a Fatwah agin ya!

 

[Ancient Grudge]

Originally posted by joespaniel
Im getting out the Masterlocks...

some for me please

 

[Cimbri]

Originally posted by AoA
You can so easily deny freedom to the Iraqis, because there will be a price to pay.

Yes and the price of the imposed freedom is the blood of the Iraqis. I’m afraid that they will be somewhat ungrateful.

Originally posted by AoA
I have come to realize that, and I'm affriad many still don't understand, some men will never behave in society, and Saddam is one of those men.

The mid-east is currently full of potential Saddams. Chop of one head and a new one will grow out.

...That war is a Pandora’s box...

 

[joespaniel]

Originally posted by Alcibiaties of Athenae
Quiet, or I'll issue a Fatwah agin ya!

You would, you Mullah-Fakir.

Now I know what its like to be :fish: Salmon Rushdie...

Thats it then. I jihad you!

 

[Switch625]

I have a thought I'd like to share.

I have heard a lot of people say that "being anti-war does not mean I'm pro-Saddam."

I believe you mean it. I'm sure you'd pass a polygraph on it.

The problem is, that is EXACTLY how it works out in reality. If you in the anti-war crowd get your way, you will give Saddam the message he has nothing to fear at all. That will make him far more dangerous than he is right now, as he will know he will be able to act with impugnity. He will know that threats and sanctions will come to nothing.

My idealistic friends, your opposition to war may not be pro-Saddam in your hearts, but it IS pro-Saddam in reality.

 

[Greadius]

And if you don't believe Switch (and why would you not?), you can hear it from Iraq itself:

"Iraq's tightly controlled news media gave prominent coverage to the rallies with television stations showing footage of millions marching in the world's cities -- under the logo "International Day of Confronting the Aggression."

"The world said with one voice: 'no to aggression on Iraq'," read a headline in the government daily Al-Jumhuriya. "The world rises against American aggression and the arrogance of naked force," read a front page headline in the army daily Al-Qadissiya, according to The Associated Press.

"These demonstrations expressed in their spirit, meaning and slogans the decisive Iraqi victory and the defeat and isolation of America," Al-Jumhuriya said in a commentary."

 

[G-Man]

Originally posted by IceBlaZe
No it isn't. There are a million reasons to protest for in Israel, each group and it's own reasons, and the nation has a reason as a whole. How much protests do you see?
We like to blame each other, rightists the left, left the right, barely even put our note in the Kalfi and go back home.
The unawareness and sleepiness of the Israeli society can be seen in the huge mandate "Shinui", the Secular Messiah party, got.
It's frustration, unawareness and lack of belief in the ability to change something yourself. So you vote for a party that promises anything, but haven't done nothing. It's a known fact, any conversation with a Sociologist/Economist/Political scientist (with a good logic) will tell you the same (One came to lecture in our school, and one, who isn't a sociolgist but a leader of youth movements and runs his own few seminaries, said the same).
When I say aware (you might misundersand me), I mean in the term of "Awake", confronting.
That is the exact opposit of the Israeli society AND it's youth. It wasn't so in the past, but it is now.
All the brands in TV commercials even to start to call us that - "Escape" paints the Israeli youth as Escapist and slobbist, and it is just the beginning of a trend already noticed.
It wasn't always like that. In 1982, 300,000 people protested after Sabra and Shatila. Today, nothing would move such an amount.
In the 50's, tens of thousands (including my teacer) protested against the payment agreement with Germany concerning the Holocaust, today, even the worse thing that happens, at best a few thousands will do the same.
The Israeli society is mostly Escapist and voluptary.
Do you know what is the income gap average in Israel is? 1/44!
Highest of all western states! Not one serious protest about that.
And our society is meant to be Zionist, ie modelling an "Example state for Goyim" in the words of Ben Gurion.
Those days are gone, and the society aswell. If anything will be particulary to blame if our state deteriorates untill no end, it is the society of today and especially the youth of today who practically barely does a THING. Even the IDF recruitment percentage among Seculars is decreasing in unknown numbers each year.


Maybe Israelis came to realize that protest don't have any effect. Have the payments from Germany been cancelled? Did they had any effect on the IDF in 83'?


Do you want a list?
1. Income gaps
2. Corruption and crime in government
3. Lack of action to build security fence
4. the continuing un-normal rate of expansion of colonies, while people inside Israel continue to be slaughtered.

1. What will they call for? No one is foolish enough to believe the rich people will give up their money and give it to the poor because of a protest against them. And the more the goverment inteferes with buisnesses it just makes them worst because of all the bureaucracy it has.
2. The police is investigating it. What will the people protest?
3. Bureaucracy is not something a protest would change.
4. That was protested. The only problem is that most public doesn't care and doesn't believe there's a connection between the two things.

 

[CurtSibling]

Ah, who needs the Gulf War II, when we have CFC OT Forum!

 

[vonork]

Well, most anti-war protesters, protest against a war RIGHT NOW. They protest against a war NOT approved by the UNSC.

If a war would be approved by the UNSC most of the EU - where large protest where held would support it. The 'we will NEVER go to war crowd' is not that big.

They are basically saying, look it's working with that army on Saddams doorsteps, the bad cop(Attack NOW) good cop(Wait a little) routine is having an effect. Let's see if we can wait this one out, perhaps a few more weeks or a month or two will get us through this without a war - and if not then get an UNSC resolution for the war and we will support it.

So saying that they are 'as a consequence' pro-saddam as they don't want a war now is a bit wrong.

 

[Cimbri]

Originally posted by CurtSibling
Ah, who needs the Gulf War II, when we have CFC OT Forum!

Yeah… It’s quite evident that the World Peace Day is over.

Krieg dem Krieg…