World size bug alert

[HellboundHeathcliff]

In C3C 1.22, *any* biq that contains a custom map will use the OCN & tech rate setting for the world size of the last played random map. This includes the conquests that come with C3C and normal map sizes that are generated with the editor.

I also tested PTW and that does the same thing for any maps of a non-standard ptw size. I didn't bother with vanilla civ3 but it is probably the same as ptw.

So, you can theoretically play RoR and accidently be using huge map settings... then play a tiny random game... then play RoR again and have tiny settings for OCN & tech rate.

This can be tested as follows:

1) Start a random game of a specified size of your choice.
2) Save & exit.
3) Start a scenario that has a custom map.
4) Save and exit.
5) Using seedbeast or civ3 multitool savegame editor (seedbeast is quicker), check the .sav and it will say it is the same world size as the random map you started.

This can be double checked by starting a second random game of a different size and then starting a new game using the same scenario as before and the new .sav will have the different world size setting.

There is only one way around this:
Any .biq file that has a custom map must have the OCN & Tech rate set the same for each world size. This way it doesn't matter which size random game was previously played.

 

[Chieftess]

It's been known since the beta, just so you know. In fact, if you play a save that someone else had, you use their settings and preferences. Same with scenarios. Load one, and you'll wind up with or without certain victory conditions.

 

[HellboundHeathcliff]

There seems to be plenty of folks that don't know about it.

Edit: the prefs & such make sense, but the world sizes should have been made a little smarter.

 

[Justus II]

I knew about preferences carrying forward, but not the map size, until Watorrey pointed it out. I've done some testing of my own to confirm it, and it definitely affects the Conquests that came with C3C. Depending on the most recent random game played, you could start a scenario with over double the tech cost of the exact same scenario, just played a little later after a tiny map game. You are correct, though, that once started, the world size setting is retained through subsequent saves and so forth, so it's only 'variable' when starting a new game.

I certainly would not expect that modded maps (Conquests, scenarios, mods) would use the last random map size for their OCN and tech settings! I would assume it would read the map size and set the OCN and Tech to the closest size, or at the least default to standard, but to leave it random makes no sense to me. In effect, for all customized scenarios, Corruption and Tech pace, two of the key factors of game balance, have been semi-random all along!! If it was noticed in Beta, how come no one ever pointed it out?

Also, Watorrey has found a rather quick fix in the editor for custom scenarios (like the Conquests), change the OCN and Tech Rate settings for all 5 world sizes to be the same in that BIQ file (i.e., for Rise of Rome, set the OCN = 24 for Tiny, Small, Standard, Large, AND Huge, since their 140x140 map is closest to the 130x130 large setting). Same with tech multiplier. Then, no matter what size Civ is in the mood to assign, the tech and OCN numbers are the same.

 

[grs]

Seems this is what causes ainwood to give us strange research times and OCN in recent COTM games.

 

[HellboundHeathcliff]

A quick note about the conquests. Any changes made to the biqs and the score won't get recorded if it is a new high. You're better off figuring what size world it is then starting a random game of that size, then go back and start the conquest.

 

[ainwood]

Seems this is what causes ainwood to give us strange research times and OCN in recent COTM games.

Correct.

As far as I could make out, when you import a map into a scenario, it imports only the actual map details: not the world size settings. Therefore, the world size settings remain the same as they were for the last map.

The workaround (which I haven't tested on 'custom' maps) is to generate a random map of the desired size to 'set' the OCN and tech modifier parameters, then import the map you want to use over the top.

 

[HellboundHeathcliff]

Correct.

As far as I could make out, when you import a map into a scenario, it imports only the actual map details: not the world size settings. Therefore, the world size settings remain the same as they were for the last map.

The workaround (which I haven't tested on 'custom' maps) is to generate a random map of the desired size to 'set' the OCN and tech modifier parameters, then import the map you want to use over the top.

I tested generating a map with the editor first. It doesn't work.

I repeat... *ANY* custom map will use the world size setting of the last *played* random game. In PTW it was only with non-normal sized maps. Thus we have something else they broke in C3C.

 

[grs]

Correct.

As far as I could make out, when you import a map into a scenario, it imports only the actual map details: not the world size settings. Therefore, the world size settings remain the same as they were for the last map.

The workaround (which I haven't tested on 'custom' maps) is to generate a random map of the desired size to 'set' the OCN and tech modifier parameters, then import the map you want to use over the top.

While the tech speed seemed to be ok in COTM03, it seemed to me there was still an issue with the map size and OCN / palace size. I needed more cities than I assumed to need 1.000 shields for a palace.

 

[Aggie]

Bleh. This is bad. This must have ruined a lot of maps I made for PBEM

 

[HellboundHeathcliff]

Bleh. This is bad. This must have ruined a lot of maps I made for PBEM

At least once the game has started, everyone will be playing with the same rules. You just can't compare 2 different games.

 

[Aggie]

Well, that makes it better. I will just have to warn the player then to avoid them getting confused.

 

[ainwood]

While the tech speed seemed to be ok in COTM03, it seemed to me there was still an issue with the map size and OCN / palace size. I needed more cities than I assumed to need 1.000 shields for a palace.

Shouldn't be. The basica problem is that within the save there is a flag for 'actual world size', which is not being updated properly (the bug bit). AFAIK, this flag is then just used internally to reference the data for the applicable world size (including OCN and tech cost).

 

[HellboundHeathcliff]

Update!!

The barbarian activity setting is bugged the same way the world size is. It ignores the barbarian activity option on the scenario settings tab and uses the setting from the last generated random map.

 

[MSTK]

That's sad

Can you bypass it by adding Custom Rules?

 

[Justus II]

No, you have to either edit the setting in your .INI file, or (the easier way) just create a new random game with the barb settings you want, then open the scenario/mod and it will retain those settings. Once you create a save game of your mod, those settings are retained, at least.

 

[HellboundHeathcliff]

The world size bug can be worked around as mentioned in the 1st post.

The barbarian bug cannot be worked around. You have to start a random map with the barb setting you wish to use, then 'start new game' and load the scenario.

 

[ainwood]

Just noticed this.... So the answer is to generate a random map with the same parameters as the map for your scenario - world size, barbs etc, then import the scenario.

I guess the other option is to edit the .ini file, but the game generation is probably easier.

 

[HellboundHeathcliff]

The random map has to be generated as a 'new game' and not in the editor. Then start the scenerio gameplay. There is no way to save the barb settings in the biq.

Editing the ini shouldn't be recommended as a standard procedure although it would probably work. There are also 2 separate sets of entries in the ini file for map settings and i haven't bothered to determine what the difference is.

 

[Justus II]

EDIT: Nevermind, replied to wrong thread!