Enrico Swagolo
Deity
- Joined
- Jun 10, 2013
- Messages
- 2,387
I've noticed a lack of a topic about wonders (and even searched for one - with little success) so I decided to make one myself to make a place for wonder balance suggestions.
I'll start with the one I consider the most underpowered.
Stonehenge
3 Faith, free Shrine, free faith - just enough for a pantheon
It doesn't even feel like a wonder. First of all, it doesn't even provide any Culture. The free Shrine is a minor convenience at best, so is that free Faith. It is theoretically the first accessible wonder but it is very lackluster. It has no unique features, it just gives you a small amount of yields.
Feels like it should get something like +3 Culture at the very least, it still wouldn't be impressive or interesting by any means but at least it wouldn't be terrible to the point I'd never even consider getting it. It's simply not worth the increase of future wonder costs to build something that is not really a wonder, the AI is only losing out on building it too - as most AIs who get WWs love any and all wonders, it's simply not worth the reduced probability of them actually getting good wonders that would help them. What makes it even worse is it comes out when you need production the most on other things. You get Stonehenge, yeah, but what about your worker? Settler? They are delayed, and all for faith you'd get anyway in your second city thanks to a pantheon.
If it is to be unique, how about have it double the strength of your pantheon but only before your religion is founded or any city of yours becomes religious, at which point it obsoletes and just gives a small amount of culture/faith per turn from the wonder itself?
Parthenon.
1 work of Art, 2 culture and less boredom. Feels like it needs something on top of it. Statue of Zeus is very similar but just superior. It reduces Crime (which is a much bigger deal than boredom), adds +15% attack against cities, similar yields (1f1c is about equal in my book, if not better) and has a free Forge before you can even construct Forges.
Parthenon is also a cultural wonder for Liberty... Which is not a cultural policy tree. I'm not saying all wonders should fit their trees, but in pretty much every other case they do? I mean, consider that:
Hanging Gardens fits Tradition as it provides a free Garden to help produce specialists, more Food to get those specialists going and on top of that it grants you a Writer to get you a free work of art which fits as Tradition can easily go into Aesthetics due to GP generation bonuses and superior culture compared to other trees, Terracota is assisting you with early conquest, Piety wonder fits the tree and provides synergy with it (+1 Faith for specialist may convince you to get more specialists and - therefore - GPs)
Statecraft's Forbidden Palace helps you with your potential diplomatic victory, etc.
How does Parthenon fit Liberty? History wise it does, but otherwise there's no real connection with the tree. No synergy at all besides reducing Boredom which you may have more problems with considering you get Culture per tech, not as yields on garrisons/cities.
So what do I suggest? Maybe less building rush cost and/or less building upkeep. Or maybe have it grant that free Great Person liberty lost after changes? Fits historically (Greece generated lots of GPs in real life), fits the tree because a free GP fits literally anything.
Now the ones I consider very powerful (they're not really problems or imbalanced as on average all wonders, besides the ones above, are in my opinion stronger than vanilla):
Temple of Artemis.
Doesn't need an explanation to be honest. It'll easily give you far more than Hanging Gardens do food wise in every reasonable city, it is fairly unique, grants a free Granary too.
Oracle
Free SoPol just when you need it the most, reduced illiteracy (although that is rarely a problem in my experience), some yields, AI rarely like this one and you can usually get it even when they're ahead. Nice.
Alhambra - 20% culture, free castle, Drill. Even the AI knows this wonder rocks and if they're ahead in science, they'll try to get it.
I'll start with the one I consider the most underpowered.
Stonehenge
3 Faith, free Shrine, free faith - just enough for a pantheon
It doesn't even feel like a wonder. First of all, it doesn't even provide any Culture. The free Shrine is a minor convenience at best, so is that free Faith. It is theoretically the first accessible wonder but it is very lackluster. It has no unique features, it just gives you a small amount of yields.
Feels like it should get something like +3 Culture at the very least, it still wouldn't be impressive or interesting by any means but at least it wouldn't be terrible to the point I'd never even consider getting it. It's simply not worth the increase of future wonder costs to build something that is not really a wonder, the AI is only losing out on building it too - as most AIs who get WWs love any and all wonders, it's simply not worth the reduced probability of them actually getting good wonders that would help them. What makes it even worse is it comes out when you need production the most on other things. You get Stonehenge, yeah, but what about your worker? Settler? They are delayed, and all for faith you'd get anyway in your second city thanks to a pantheon.
If it is to be unique, how about have it double the strength of your pantheon but only before your religion is founded or any city of yours becomes religious, at which point it obsoletes and just gives a small amount of culture/faith per turn from the wonder itself?
Parthenon.
1 work of Art, 2 culture and less boredom. Feels like it needs something on top of it. Statue of Zeus is very similar but just superior. It reduces Crime (which is a much bigger deal than boredom), adds +15% attack against cities, similar yields (1f1c is about equal in my book, if not better) and has a free Forge before you can even construct Forges.
Parthenon is also a cultural wonder for Liberty... Which is not a cultural policy tree. I'm not saying all wonders should fit their trees, but in pretty much every other case they do? I mean, consider that:
Hanging Gardens fits Tradition as it provides a free Garden to help produce specialists, more Food to get those specialists going and on top of that it grants you a Writer to get you a free work of art which fits as Tradition can easily go into Aesthetics due to GP generation bonuses and superior culture compared to other trees, Terracota is assisting you with early conquest, Piety wonder fits the tree and provides synergy with it (+1 Faith for specialist may convince you to get more specialists and - therefore - GPs)
Statecraft's Forbidden Palace helps you with your potential diplomatic victory, etc.
How does Parthenon fit Liberty? History wise it does, but otherwise there's no real connection with the tree. No synergy at all besides reducing Boredom which you may have more problems with considering you get Culture per tech, not as yields on garrisons/cities.
So what do I suggest? Maybe less building rush cost and/or less building upkeep. Or maybe have it grant that free Great Person liberty lost after changes? Fits historically (Greece generated lots of GPs in real life), fits the tree because a free GP fits literally anything.
Now the ones I consider very powerful (they're not really problems or imbalanced as on average all wonders, besides the ones above, are in my opinion stronger than vanilla):
Temple of Artemis.
Doesn't need an explanation to be honest. It'll easily give you far more than Hanging Gardens do food wise in every reasonable city, it is fairly unique, grants a free Granary too.
Oracle
Free SoPol just when you need it the most, reduced illiteracy (although that is rarely a problem in my experience), some yields, AI rarely like this one and you can usually get it even when they're ahead. Nice.
Alhambra - 20% culture, free castle, Drill. Even the AI knows this wonder rocks and if they're ahead in science, they'll try to get it.