World Wonders balance

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I've noticed a lack of a topic about wonders (and even searched for one - with little success) so I decided to make one myself to make a place for wonder balance suggestions.

I'll start with the one I consider the most underpowered.

Stonehenge

3 Faith, free Shrine, free faith - just enough for a pantheon

It doesn't even feel like a wonder. First of all, it doesn't even provide any Culture. The free Shrine is a minor convenience at best, so is that free Faith. It is theoretically the first accessible wonder but it is very lackluster. It has no unique features, it just gives you a small amount of yields.

Feels like it should get something like +3 Culture at the very least, it still wouldn't be impressive or interesting by any means but at least it wouldn't be terrible to the point I'd never even consider getting it. It's simply not worth the increase of future wonder costs to build something that is not really a wonder, the AI is only losing out on building it too - as most AIs who get WWs love any and all wonders, it's simply not worth the reduced probability of them actually getting good wonders that would help them. What makes it even worse is it comes out when you need production the most on other things. You get Stonehenge, yeah, but what about your worker? Settler? They are delayed, and all for faith you'd get anyway in your second city thanks to a pantheon.

If it is to be unique, how about have it double the strength of your pantheon but only before your religion is founded or any city of yours becomes religious, at which point it obsoletes and just gives a small amount of culture/faith per turn from the wonder itself?

Parthenon.

1 work of Art, 2 culture and less boredom. Feels like it needs something on top of it. Statue of Zeus is very similar but just superior. It reduces Crime (which is a much bigger deal than boredom), adds +15% attack against cities, similar yields (1f1c is about equal in my book, if not better) and has a free Forge before you can even construct Forges.

Parthenon is also a cultural wonder for Liberty... Which is not a cultural policy tree. I'm not saying all wonders should fit their trees, but in pretty much every other case they do? I mean, consider that:
Hanging Gardens fits Tradition as it provides a free Garden to help produce specialists, more Food to get those specialists going and on top of that it grants you a Writer to get you a free work of art which fits as Tradition can easily go into Aesthetics due to GP generation bonuses and superior culture compared to other trees, Terracota is assisting you with early conquest, Piety wonder fits the tree and provides synergy with it (+1 Faith for specialist may convince you to get more specialists and - therefore - GPs)
Statecraft's Forbidden Palace helps you with your potential diplomatic victory, etc.

How does Parthenon fit Liberty? History wise it does, but otherwise there's no real connection with the tree. No synergy at all besides reducing Boredom which you may have more problems with considering you get Culture per tech, not as yields on garrisons/cities.
So what do I suggest? Maybe less building rush cost and/or less building upkeep. Or maybe have it grant that free Great Person liberty lost after changes? Fits historically (Greece generated lots of GPs in real life), fits the tree because a free GP fits literally anything.

Now the ones I consider very powerful (they're not really problems or imbalanced as on average all wonders, besides the ones above, are in my opinion stronger than vanilla):

Temple of Artemis.

Doesn't need an explanation to be honest. It'll easily give you far more than Hanging Gardens do food wise in every reasonable city, it is fairly unique, grants a free Granary too.

Oracle


Free SoPol just when you need it the most, reduced illiteracy (although that is rarely a problem in my experience), some yields, AI rarely like this one and you can usually get it even when they're ahead. Nice.

Alhambra
- 20% culture, free castle, Drill. Even the AI knows this wonder rocks and if they're ahead in science, they'll try to get it.
 

Stonehenge

3 Faith, free Shrine, free faith - just enough for a pantheon

It doesn't even feel like a wonder. First of all, it doesn't even provide any Culture. The free Shrine is a minor convenience at best, so is that free Faith. It is theoretically the first accessible wonder but it is very lackluster. It has no unique features, it just gives you a small amount of yields.

Feels like it should get something like +3 Culture at the very least, it still wouldn't be impressive or interesting by any means but at least it wouldn't be terrible to the point I'd never even consider getting it. It's simply not worth the increase of future wonder costs to build something that is not really a wonder, the AI is only losing out on building it too - as most AIs who get WWs love any and all wonders, it's simply not worth the reduced probability of them actually getting good wonders that would help them. What makes it even worse is it comes out when you need production the most on other things. You get Stonehenge, yeah, but what about your worker? Settler? They are delayed, and all for faith you'd get anyway in your second city thanks to a pantheon.

If it is to be unique, how about have it double the strength of your pantheon but only before your religion is founded or any city of yours becomes religious, at which point it obsoletes and just gives a small amount of culture/faith per turn from the wonder itself?
Here is the big problem with the Stonehenge, it can't possibly do anything else without being moved. As it currently works, it is a super-powerful faith-tool, rushing the Stonehenge pretty much guarantees that you get a religion (assuming you don't pick a terrible pantheon just to troll me), that alone is so powerful that nothing else could be added to it. Removing the free faith/shrine/faith for any other effect makes the wonder way too much of a wildcard, it being available so early that you really can't control it (guess that goes for most of the ancient era wonders, but doubly so for the Stonehenge). I guess moving it back a tech and completely changing its abilities would be one option, but I'm not sure I see the need for it.

Parthenon.

1 work of Art, 2 culture and less boredom. Feels like it needs something on top of it. Statue of Zeus is very similar but just superior. It reduces Crime (which is a much bigger deal than boredom), adds +15% attack against cities, similar yields (1f1c is about equal in my book, if not better) and has a free Forge before you can even construct Forges.

Parthenon is also a cultural wonder for Liberty... Which is not a cultural policy tree. I'm not saying all wonders should fit their trees, but in pretty much every other case they do? I mean, consider that:
Hanging Gardens fits Tradition as it provides a free Garden to help produce specialists, more Food to get those specialists going and on top of that it grants you a Writer to get you a free work of art which fits as Tradition can easily go into Aesthetics due to GP generation bonuses and superior culture compared to other trees, Terracota is assisting you with early conquest, Piety wonder fits the tree and provides synergy with it (+1 Faith for specialist may convince you to get more specialists and - therefore - GPs)
Statecraft's Forbidden Palace helps you with your potential diplomatic victory, etc.

How does Parthenon fit Liberty? History wise it does, but otherwise there's no real connection with the tree. No synergy at all besides reducing Boredom which you may have more problems with considering you get Culture per tech, not as yields on garrisons/cities.
So what do I suggest? Maybe less building rush cost and/or less building upkeep. Or maybe have it grant that free Great Person liberty lost after changes? Fits historically (Greece generated lots of GPs in real life), fits the tree because a free GP fits literally anything.
Interesting, I consider the Parthenon to be the strongest of all the ancient era policy-tree based wonders. It gives a bunch of culture and tourism once you've filled the other artist slot and it reduces unhappiness slightly. Compared to that the Hanging gardens gives you a food bonus the size of a farm and a mediocre great person that you probably don't have the slot to use. The terracotta army is slightly better off giving you some happiness and a slightly too early golden age.

Temple of Artemis.

Doesn't need an explanation to be honest. It'll easily give you far more than Hanging Gardens do food wise in every reasonable city, it is fairly unique, grants a free Granary too.
I agree, it is great. I don't think it is overpowered at all however, I mostly think that the Hanging gardens is bad.



Oracle


Free SoPol just when you need it the most, reduced illiteracy (although that is rarely a problem in my experience), some yields, AI rarely like this one and you can usually get it even when they're ahead. Nice.
I disagree both about the illiteracy (which is usually one of my top unhappiness sources) and on the fact that the AI ignore it, there aren't that many AIs that prioritize the top tech path over the bottom one (more now than a month ago, but still), however those who do pretty much always picks up the Oracle (and the Parthenon if they are progress)



Alhambra
- 20% culture, free castle, Drill. Even the AI knows this wonder rocks and if they're ahead in science, they'll try to get it.
This wonder is decent, I usually don't bother trying to get it because it is on a tech that at least one AI tend to prioritize. But I would probably toss a great engineer on it if I had the chance.
It is worth mentioning that it is far worse than it was in Vanilla, both because culture is more equally split in the empire and because Drill is a lot worse than it use to be.
 
Here is the big problem with the Stonehenge, it can't possibly do anything else without being moved. As it currently works, it is a super-powerful faith-tool, rushing the Stonehenge pretty much guarantees that you get a religion (assuming you don't pick a terrible pantheon just to troll me), that alone is so powerful that nothing else could be added to it. Removing the free faith/shrine/faith for any other effect makes the wonder way too much of a wildcard, it being available so early that you really can't control it (guess that goes for most of the ancient era wonders, but doubly so for the Stonehenge). I guess moving it back a tech and completely changing its abilities would be one option, but I'm not sure I see the need for it.

I disagree, 3 faith is far from being a (good) religion "guarantee". Can't call it super powerful neither - from the production spent on Stonehenge I'd get a Settler whom I would settle in a place where he has access to at least 2 Pantheon-related things, which would then give me 4-6 faith. You can get 3 faith easily from about any pantheon source, just get a Settler, expand faster and get more faith in the slightly longer run without increasing your production costs on next, better wonders.

Why can't it do anything else? Some wonders are already better than others (and it's very fine that it is so - after all that makes it interesting), one more wouldn't change a thing.

Interesting, I consider the Parthenon to be the strongest of all the ancient era policy-tree based wonders. It gives a bunch of culture and tourism once you've filled the other artist slot and it reduces unhappiness slightly. Compared to that the Hanging gardens gives you a food bonus the size of a farm and a mediocre great person that you probably don't have the slot to use. The terracotta army is slightly better off giving you some happiness and a slightly too early golden age.

Great Writer pretty much gives you the great work of art Parthenon provides (and it'll rarely be built more than 30-50 turns away from the Policy which gives you a Great Work of Writing slot anyway, at which point you'll get some GAP and Culture from the Writer too because IIRC the same policy that gives Great Writer also gives you GAP+C per GP spent) Besides even if the Writer has to wait for a long time before being spent he'll still more than pay off the maintenance he wasted you by giving you culture + GAP once you get that policy.

Additionally, HG have their own culture comparable to Parthenons, 6 Food is nothing to sneeze at at this point in the game, +25% GP generation way before you can construct gardens is going to slightly speed up your GPs and saves you production on Garden later. If you've got any Garden-improved resources on your capital (it's ideally the HG target) they get going way earlier.

I'm also sorry but I don't understand you in the slightest - you mention HG giving you a Writer before he can be put to use as a bit flaw, but Parthenon has the same problem to a much greater degree - second slot of Parthenon won't be filled until at least mid Renaissance (esp since you're Liberty/Progress and don't have GP boni/slots of Tradition - if you had those, by this time you'd likely be close to spawning your first natural Artist), therefore rendering its two Arts theme bonus unusable for a long time, in fact it's unusable for far longer than you'd have to wait for the 4th policy for the Writer in case of Tradition.


I agree, it is great. I don't think it is overpowered at all however, I mostly think that the Hanging gardens is bad.

Never said it's overpowered, just that I find it strong - which it is. Same about other wonders.

I disagree both about the illiteracy (which is usually one of my top unhappiness sources) and on the fact that the AI ignore it, there aren't that many AIs that prioritize the top tech path over the bottom one (more now than a month ago, but still), however those who do pretty much always picks up the Oracle (and the Parthenon if they are progress)

Good point that not many prioritise it while some are really insane about it, but I don't even know why you mention Parthenon here - it is pretty much impossible to build. I don't know why but most AI don't really like Tradition but everyone and their mother adore Progress, especially the Wonder lovers. By the time I get to this tech it's already built every time (but then I never rush this tech, esp since I love playing Spain and need to rush Chivalry, not that policy), Ramkhamhaeng and Haile Selassie both love it.

This wonder is decent, I usually don't bother trying to get it because it is on a tech that at least one AI tend to prioritize. But I would probably toss a great engineer on it if I had the chance.
It is worth mentioning that it is far worse than it was in Vanilla, both because culture is more equally split in the empire and because Drill is a lot worse than it use to be.

Good points, but I still like that wonder. And I never said the wonders I consider strong should be toned down, just that they're strong while also mentioning that pretty much all wonders are stronger now.
 
I disagree, 3 faith is far from being a (good) religion "guarantee". Can't call it super powerful neither - from the production spent on Stonehenge I'd get a Settler whom I would settle in a place where he has access to at least 2 Pantheon-related things, which would then give me 4-6 faith. You can get 3 faith easily from about any pantheon source, just get a Settler, expand faster and get more faith in the slightly longer run without increasing your production costs on next, better wonders.
Well, it's 3 faith per turn on top of getting a pantheon maybe 10 turns earlier than than you normally would. You're right about the settler, but unless you're picking one of the few pantheons that doesn't require improved tiles to work, getting another settler probably isn't going to help you much.
I mean honestly if you want a guaranteed religion from Stonehenge, picking Goddess of Beauty is pretty much a guarantee no matter where you're located. If you have another strong choice available, you could go for it. But you pretty much always have the choice to fall back on Goddess of beauty.


I'm sorry but I don't understand you in the slightest.

Great Writer pretty much gives you the great work of art Parthenon provides (and it'll rarely be built more than 30-50 turns away from the Policy which gives you a Great Work of Writing slot anyway, at which point you'll get some GAP and Culture from the Writer too because IIRC the same policy that gives Great Writer also gives you GAP+C per GP spent) Besides even if the Writer has to wait for a long time before being spent he'll still more than pay off the maintenance he wasted you by giving you culture + GAP once you get that policy.
There are other ways to get an artist, picking up Piety or being Maya for example. The point is that filling the out the Parthenon is a pretty powerful tool even more powerful if you for example go into Aesthetics or play as France.

The boredom reduction scales well into the lategame pretty much cutting off one half to one unhappiness per city, even more important is the fact that boredom unhappiness is the worst type of unhappiness as it raises all other players tourism against you.

Also HG have their own culture comparable to Parthenons, 6 Food is nothing to sneeze at at this point in the game, +25% GP generation way before you can construct gardens is going to slightly speed up your GPs and saves you production on Garden later.
6 food is like one third of a internal trade-route, or one farm. Really not that impressive. Getting the free garden is nice if you have garden-scaling luxuries nearby, but unlike the Parthenon the HG completely lacks any lategame scaling.

Also you mention HG giving you a Writer before he can be put to use as a bit flaw, but Parthenon has the same problem to a much greater degree - second slot of Parthenon won't be filled until at least mid Renaissance (esp since you're Liberty/Progress and don't have GP boni/slots of Tradition - if you had those, by this time you'd likely be close to spawning your first natural Artist), therefore rendering its two Arts theme bonus unusable for a long time, in fact it's unusable for far longer than you'd have to wait for the 4th policy for the Writer in case of Tradition.
I kinda skipped one step of my though-process, what I meant was that the big advantage that HG have over Parthenon is that it is available earlier, but that is kinda negated because the great writer isn't usable until around the time you could have finished the Parthenon.

Anyways, the bottom-line is that I would take the Parthenon or even the terracotta army over the HG every game. You obviously wouldn't and that's completely up to you.
 
Well, it's 3 faith per turn on top of getting a pantheon maybe 10 turns earlier than than you normally would. You're right about the settler, but unless you're picking one of the few pantheons that doesn't require improved tiles to work, getting another settler probably isn't going to help you much.
I mean honestly if you want a guaranteed religion from Stonehenge, picking Goddess of Beauty is pretty much a guarantee no matter where you're located. If you have another strong choice available, you could go for it. But you pretty much always have the choice to fall back on Goddess of beauty.

No, you don't get the pantheon 10 turns earlier if you go Tradition opener into +2 Faith policy (name eludes me) - which you should if you want to get a strong religion. Tradition also interacts way better with Religion and piety (+1 faith per specialist works really well with Tradition which makes specialists VERY worthwhile in capital)
In that case you get it at about the same time or way earlier if you got Cultural ruin/Culture CS friendship on welcome which is pretty much a cultural ruin.


There are other ways to get an artist, picking up Piety or being Maya for example. The point is that filling the out the Parthenon is a pretty powerful tool even more powerful if you for example go into Aesthetics or play as France.

Yeah but that makes it very situational and forces you into going certain policies/civs, otherwise mid renaissance it is. (Also I slightly changed my post, probably while you were writing your answer)

The boredom reduction scales well into the lategame pretty much cutting off one half to one unhappiness per city, even more important is the fact that boredom unhappiness is the worst type of unhappiness as it raises all other players tourism against you.

Well, I mostly play tradition so I could be biased - after all if you go Tradition, which is where HG is, you likely won't even have those culture problems to begin with, what with +2Culture per Monument (and +2 per garden, so river cities benefit even more).

6 food is like one third of a internal trade-route, or one farm. Really not that impressive. Getting the free garden is nice if you have garden-scaling luxuries nearby, but unlike the Parthenon the HG completely lacks any lategame scaling.

No, at the time HG is built it's more like 75% of a trade route. Internal trade routes also take away your other trade routes and that +6 food will work regardless of what happens.

HG's another boni is that the policy that adds Writer slot also adds you +2 Culture from Garden. Basically HG gives you more Culture than Parthenon thanks to that.

I kinda skipped one step of my though-process, what I meant was that the big advantage that HG have over Parthenon is that it is available earlier, but that is kinda negated because the great writer isn't usable until around the time you could have finished the Parthenon.

But your city will grow earlier, your production on Garden (costs about as much as HG - so most of the production cost pays off for itself) is saved, the GW not being usable is not a problem because sometimes with good cultural starts I'd just wait with him for the policy that adds the GW slot anyway as it'd give me more culture in the long run than just spawning him immediately.

Anyways, the bottom-line is that I would take the Parthenon or even the terracotta army over the HG every game. You obviously wouldn't and that's completely up to you.

Terracotta army is a good wonder though? Except it's impossible to build if you want Libraries in reasonable time.

It's a good wonder to conquer too, because last time I did so I got 1 of every unit in a random city of mine.
 
No, you don't get the pantheon 10 turns earlier if you go Tradition opener into +2 Faith policy (name eludes me) - which you should if you want to get a strong religion. Tradition also interacts way better with Religion and piety (+1 faith per specialist works really well with Tradition which makes specialists VERY worthwhile in capital)
In that case you get it at about the same time or way earlier if you got Cultural ruin/Culture CS friendship on welcome which is pretty much a cultural ruin.
Okay, I really don't see this. Researching the Wheel takes like 12 turns, building the Stonehenge takes like 15 turns assuming you've got a decent start, In that time there is no way you're going to get two policies into tradition without a culture ruin, and certainly not 15 turns earlier(the time it takes the policy to give you the 30 faith required for a pantheon. If you want to bring culture-ruins RNG into this I can bring production-ruins and free the wheel ruins.

Also, even if you were correct, not everyone is going to go tradition, and everyone still benefits from getting a free religion.


Yeah but that makes it very situational and forces you into going certain policies/civs, otherwise mid renaissance it is. (Also I slightly changed my post, probably while you were writing your answer)
Maybe, but the option still exists, Progress into Piety is a pretty common path as Statecraft and Aesthetics have less synergy with it. The point is that the bonus is still good even if you pick it up in the renaissance era. I mean it's pretty much a free museum that you can't fail to fill, as the requirements are way easy.


Well, I mostly play tradition so I could be biased - after all if you go Tradition, which is where HG is, you likely won't even have those culture problems to begin with, what with +2Culture per Monument (and +2 per garden, so river cities benefit even more).
The thing is, that eventually some boredom is going to sneak up on you anyways, even if you keep up with your infrastructure (which you probably won't if you're playing tradition). I mean I tend to have a few points of unhappiness from boredom even with pagodas.


No, at the time HG is built it's more like 75% of a trade route. Internal trade routes also take away your other trade routes and that +6 food will work regardless of what happens.
Either way the wonder is straight up worse than the Temple or Artemis the Petra and the Colossus.

HG's another boni is that the policy that adds Writer slot also adds you +2 Culture from Garden. Basically HG gives you more Culture than Parthenon thanks to that.
I guess, but if you want to be obscure about it. The Parthenon might add a few points of happiness, which in turn is a few points percentage in all yields. It also gives you the theming-bonus eventually.


But your city will grow earlier, your production on Garden (costs about as much as HG - so most of the production cost pays off for itself) is saved, the GW not being usable is not a problem because sometimes with good cultural starts I'd just wait with him for the policy that adds the GW slot anyway as it'd give me more culture in the long run than just spawning him immediately.
I don't see how that have anything to do with anything, to be honest.


Terracotta army is a good wonder though? Except it's impossible to build if you want Libraries in reasonable time.

It's a good wonder to conquer too, because last time I did so I got 1 of every unit in a random city of mine.
I don't think it's that hard to build, it's located on what's probably the best tech in the classical era.

The wonder itself is kinda meh, the Golden age comes a bit too early, meaning you won't get much benefit out of it (unless you're Persia I guess). The free units are fine I guess, but there are probably only going to be like 2 of them? The reduced crime is nice and I have no idea what the instant culture boost is.
 
Okay, I really don't see this. Researching the Wheel takes like 12 turns, building the Stonehenge takes like 15 turns assuming you've got a decent start, In that time there is no way you're going to get two policies into tradition without a culture ruin, and certainly not 15 turns earlier(the time it takes the policy to give you the 30 faith required for a pantheon. If you want to bring culture-ruins RNG into this I can bring production-ruins and free the wheel ruins.

Also, even if you were correct, not everyone is going to go tradition, and everyone still benefits from getting a free religion.

That's a good point actually, but it's still a comparable time and it doesn't require you to take risk to get a debatable reward.


Maybe, but the option still exists, Progress into Piety is a pretty common path as Statecraft and Aesthetics have less synergy with it. The point is that the bonus is still good even if you pick it up in the renaissance era. I mean it's pretty much a free museum that you can't fail to fill, as the requirements are way easy.

Yes, but this Museum also is hard to build without rushing the tech.

The thing is, that eventually some boredom is going to sneak up on you anyways, even if you keep up with your infrastructure (which you probably won't if you're playing tradition). I mean I tend to have a few points of unhappiness from boredom even with pagodas.

Probably, but Tradition means more GPs which means more great works, which in turn ensures a city with amphitheatre/whatever can get a work earlier or in case it wouldn't had you not taken Tradition, effectively nullifying it or putting it all back again in favour of Tradition.

Either way the wonder is straight up worse than the Temple or Artemis the Petra and the Colossus.

I agree, maybe not Petra. But those wonders are all better than Parthenon and Terracota too so the point is a bit moot.


I guess, but if you want to be obscure about it. The Parthenon might add a few points of happiness, which in turn is a few points percentage in all yields. It also gives you the theming-bonus eventually.

Good point I suppose, but if you went Tradition you have 50 million (...okay, 2-8 at that time) bonus happiness from National wonders + Palace which pretty much means you will not have much problem keeping your happiness at around 10, effectively getting the same deal.

You also get GPs earlier and more frequently, allowing you to put their Works in the cities once you have amphitheatres or whatever and reduce the Boredom this way.


I don't think it's that hard to build, it's located on what's probably the best tech in the classical era.

Yeah the Water Mill is probably the best building of classical era, great food/production.

The wonder itself is kinda meh, the Golden age comes a bit too early, meaning you won't get much benefit out of it (unless you're Persia I guess). The free units are fine I guess, but there are probably only going to be like 2 of them? The reduced crime is nice and I have no idea what the instant culture boost is.

I don't know what the boost is neither, but I feel it gives enough of stuff that'd be irrelevant alone that it makes it a decent wonder.
 
I agree, maybe not Petra. But those wonders are all better than Parthenon and Terracota too so the point is a bit moot.
Well, you said it was worth 75% of an internal trade route, and the Petra gives an internal trade-route for free, so it is better.

Good point I suppose, but if you went Tradition you have 50 million (...okay, 2-8 at that time) bonus happiness from National wonders + Palace which pretty much means you will not have much problem keeping your happiness at around 10, effectively getting the same deal.

You also get GPs earlier and more frequently, allowing you to put their Works in the cities once you have amphitheatres or whatever and reduce the Boredom this way.
Great works doesn't really affect boredom all that much, but I feel like this theoretical situation of if Parthenon would be better if you went for tradition is rather pointless. Anyways imo the Parthenon is a lot better than the HG, I've made my point and we can really leave it at that.
 
Well, you said it was worth 75% of an internal trade route, and the Petra gives an internal trade-route for free, so it is better.

Yeah 75% of an early internal trade route, but then Petra doesn't give a free Garden/Writer, that's why I said they're comparable.

Great works doesn't really affect boredom all that much, but I feel like this theoretical situation of if Parthenon would be better if you went for tradition is rather pointless. Anyways imo the Parthenon is a lot better than the HG, I've made my point and we can really leave it at that.

Yup I agree, but it was nice discussing you. I always enjoyed debates like that.
 
what do you think of stonehenge providing free shrines to all your cities instead of faith?, maybe it is too strong.

parthenon should provide something else that fits progress, like reduced %increase of culture from new cities?.
 
what do you think of stonehenge providing free shrines to all your cities instead of faith?, maybe it is too strong.

parthenon should provide something else that fits progress, like reduced %increase of culture from new cities?.

Stonehenge providing free shrines outside of the city it was build in seems like it could work but I think it'd break the +2faith +1food pantheon per shrine/well +15% growth pantheon a bit.

I can see Stonehenge giving like +1 Culture per every shrine (to compensate it not having culture of its own) but giving a free shrine everywhere could perhaps create problems.
parthenon should provide something else that fits progress, like reduced %increase of culture from new cities?.

Progress is not really about expansion anymore though. This feels more like something that'd fit an Authority wonder.
 
A few impressions...

Stonehenge: good at what it does, aka guaranteeing you a religion. I doubt it could be made stronger beside 1-2 culture. Easily achievable too, if you rush it.

Parthenon: terrible imo. I never build it, both because the AI is crazy about it and it fulfills zero of my immediate needs.

ToA: well balanced currently. Nothing to say.

Oracle: the free SP is nice, considering how behind on culture I always am compared to the AIs. With the other bonuses I think it makes for a slightly above average WW.

Alhambra: never bother, impossible to get. It plays well on pre-existing AI advantages. %culture could use a small nerf (say 5%).
 
Stonehenge w/ Wonders Pantheon = Religion in Ancient.

I'd Rather Parthenon reduce Illiteracy or Poverty or give 1+1 [Science +Gold] Yields per City.

On another note i find the Cultural wonders (Globe Theatre, Uffizi and Broadway) to be National Wonder-tier useful. They just don't feel too good to be a World Wonder. Broadcast Towers/ Museums do a better job of Theming Muiscs/ Art.

I just don't feel Theming bonuses are super portent.
 
Agreed. The culture-per-turn (or other yields) from great works and themed buildings pales next to the culture-per-turn from population and tiles.

Actually I disagree with this. Taking the Parthenon as an example, it gives you once themed +7 culture per turn and +4 tourism per turn, that increases to 11 and 8 if you went for Aesthetics. That is really not low.


All the other ones mentioned gives a free great person along with the wonder, giving a free great work as well as an additional Historical event proc.
 
Do you swap great works with the AI? I never do, perhaps it's holding me back.
 
Wait - the cost of WW increases with each one you build? Did I read the OP correctly?
 
All the other ones mentioned gives a free great person along with the wonder, giving a free great work as well as an additional Historical event proc.

It just feels like your sinking Hammers a GPerson and some Slots for Theming. Not very Wonderful. Might as well be a National Wonder giving you a free GP that also has slots for Great Works.

Theming Bonus is +4/ +6 Tourism and +3 to +10 of a Yield (Science, Faith, Gold or Culture). Great Works give +1 Culture/ +2 Tourism each.

The Uffizi will give +2 Culture (Base), +3 Culture and +6 Tourism from GWorks, +6 Tourism and +5 Culture from Theming. You have to pop 2 other GArtitsts in the same Era for the Theming. Which is 100 + 250 GA Points [You get 10 GA P. per Art Guild].
 
Do you swap great works with the AI? I never do, perhaps it's holding me back.

Unless you capture a city that happens to have the correct GWs you need, there is no other way to get the bonuses supplied on some wonders.
Some require one or all GWs from other civs than you to be installed in their slots.
 
The Uffizi will give +2 Culture (Base), +3 Culture and +6 Tourism from GWorks, +6 Tourism and +5 Culture from Theming. You have to pop 2 other GArtitsts in the same Era for the Theming. Which is 100 + 250 GA Points [You get 10 GA P. per Art Guild].

Actually the theming bonus is +6 Tourism and + 11 Culture.
Counting the yields from the free artist and base building, building the Uffizi gives you a grand total of 8 Tourism and 14 Culture assuming you can find two artists to pop to fill it. Going into Aesthetics (which is required to build the wonder) increases the numbers to 14 Tourism and 20(or 25 I'm not 100% sure how this is doubled) culture.
Building the wonder also triggers two historical events and using the free artists grants you instant yields from Aesthetics/Tradition/Religion.

Yes this is not the best wonder in the game, but it is far from nothing. And saying that it pales compared to the culture per citizen is kinda weird, even with amphitheater operahouse and museum (15%+15%+20% = 50%) you would need 50 pop to provide the 25 culture that Uffizi provides.
 
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