Worst building

You can do the math and find that it's almost never worth it to use any musicians for great works, other than the free one you get from Broadway. If there is a culture runaway, it's almost certain that you will have to capture his capital/wonders to cut down his culture so the extra musician won't matter much and you can do as you please with them. If there isn't any runaway, then the musician tour is likely to have higher weight anyway. It is a lot more efficient to use archaeologists for great works/landmarks.

On high difficulty, if you needed the extra relatively minor tourism from the GW of music that it makes a significant difference, you'll likely don't have nearly enough tourism to win anyway.
 
To be very honest the game is full of useless buildings: Police Stations, Constab, Hospitals, Medical Labs, Windmills, every culture building except momuments (unless culture victory). After you realise this you spend more hammers on worthwhile things (such as wonders!)

Anyway on the subject of musician great works and broadway i'm fairly certain that the musician great works are a waste - musician bombs are much better. Also the math on tourism for a fully themed broadway looks off, iirc the culture from GW in Broadway is not multiplied by hotels/Airports/NVC, only the base culture provided by broadway itself is.
 
To be very honest the game is full of useless buildings: Police Stations, Constab, Hospitals, Medical Labs, Windmills, every culture building except momuments (unless culture victory). After you realise this you spend more hammers on worthwhile things (such as wonders!)

Hospitals are hardly useless for Science Victory. Hermitage is quite useful to help get policies faster and it requires Amphitheaters/Opera Houses.

Anyway on the subject of musician great works and broadway i'm fairly certain that the musician great works are a waste - musician bombs are much better. Also the math on tourism for a fully themed broadway looks off, iirc the culture from GW in Broadway is not multiplied by hotels/Airports/NVC, only the base culture provided by broadway itself is.

Description of Hotel: "Great Work Tourism output in the city +50%"

That said, my math was slightly off, I've revised it to be (hopefully) correct, 92 Tourism rather than 104...

2 base Culture + 3 WC Culture + 6 theming bonus Culture = 11 Culture total. Hotel/Airport/NVC yields 22 Tourism from that.
6 base Tourism from Great Works. Hotel/Airport/NVC adds another 12 Tourism for 18 Tourism total.
We also have 6 Tourism from the theming bonus itself.

22 + 18 + 6 = 46 Tourism, which then gets doubled by The Internet for 92 Tourism, not 104.


68, Hotel/Airport/NVC doesn't affect theming bonus.

You can do the math and find that it's almost never worth it to use any musicians for great works, other than the free one you get from Broadway.

Think about that for a moment -- if you build Broadway then your first 3 "real" Musicians will cost 200 + 300 + 400 = 900 points. By not building Broadway you could get 4 "real" Musicians for 1000 points total. The strategy I typically use is two cheap musicians plus Broadway's generated one, meaning I need 400 + 500 = 900 points total for two "real" Musicians...but I arrange it so I get the 400 point one right after my Tourism maxes out. And I get the Broadway Tourism/Culture for a hell of a lot of turns.

Then again, I've been doing that more with OOC games on Deity where I can't get a bunch of sites or museums and thus Broadway's value is inflated compared to a non OOC game.

It is a lot more efficient to use archaeologists for great works/landmarks.

It's not either/or, though.

On high difficulty, if you needed the extra relatively minor tourism from the GW of music that it makes a significant difference, you'll likely don't have nearly enough tourism to win anyway.

I'm not sure how you're seeing 92 Tourism per turn (pre all modifiers like Freedom's Towers, Order's tenets, Open Borders/Trade Routes/etc) as "minor."
 
I'm not sure how you're seeing 92 Tourism per turn (pre all modifiers like Freedom's Towers, Order's tenets, Open Borders/Trade Routes/etc) as "minor."

In order for your calculation to be accurate, you also need to know how many turns after Broadway do you expect to win the game. At the time of building Broadway and theming it, your tpt at the point is usually negligible if you're in a usual deity game. (more than 500 turns to win over culture leader). Generating 2 extra GM (3 with the free one from Broadway since it also increases counter) is huge since it raises the counter by 300 gpp. You're likely only to get one instead of two after your tourism maxed out. Now the comparison is whether that one GM is worth the number of turns you have Broadway generating tourism for x turns under sub optimal tourism. That 92 figure is grossly overestimation, since NVC, airports, Internet are all before maximum tourism.

The other argument against Broadway is that you usually want Eiffel Tower in modern era to counter ideology pressure, and that you also have to build Statue of Liberty. If you also build Broadway, it has a certain opportunity cost to it since you can lose it to AI and prioritizing it delays other buildings. Very often my cities will still be pumping museums/archaeologists in the modern era and unlikely I'll build these in non capital anyway. Of course an OCC game has a much higher weight to the individual wonders.
 
This is getting a bit off topic, but the calculations posted on broadway is off for the culture converted to tourism part.

Only the base culture from broadway is converted, not the GW culture. So with Hotels+NVC+Airport+ Aest Finisher doubling will give 18 + 6 + 4 = 28 Base Tourism. Which the Internet will increase by 100% to 56.

Screenshoot is attached from an IGE test to verify.
 

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@fimbul:
GW tourism is factored into the 18 already. 6 (GW) + 6 (NVC) + 6(Hotel+Airport) = 18
theming bonus is 3, and with aesthetic = 6
base culture = 2, so with hotel+airport+NVC = 4
The pre internet figure of 28 is correct.

The figure in LordBalkoth's calculation also included the WC +culture to WW. That adds 3 culture to Broadway, and translates into 6 tourism with NVC+Hotel+airport. The correct number before Internet should be 34. So it's total of 68 with Internet.
The number in his calculation double counted and incorrectly increased the theming bonus by NVC/airport/hotels so it was incorrect.
 
I rarely go for the unit exp buildings (barracks etc). This might be a wrong go but i find them extremely useless. I tend to attack alot of barbarians through my plays so my units are already on a good level and building those wont change much for me. Especialy when you start popping up leveled units
 
In order for your calculation to be accurate, you also need to know how many turns after Broadway do you expect to win the game.

I'd assume about 100 turns. Possibly more in the absolute worst case scenario, significantly less in a best case scenario (though in that scenario no one's culture is high enough for this entire debate to matter).

At the time of building Broadway and theming it, your tpt at the point is usually negligible if you're in a usual deity game. (more than 500 turns to win over culture leader).

So? Even if we ignored Hotels/Airports/NVC/Internet entirely, you're looking at 900+ Tourism/Culture over 100 turns (ignoring the doubled theming bonus). And if we figure you'll have all of those for, say, 30+ turns (possibly 50+ turns if we exclude Airports) that's 9 * 50 + 62.5 * 20 + 68 * 30 = 3740 Tourism. Note that isn't counting the benefit from Hotels from to NVC/Internet or from Hotels/NVC prior to Internet either. Even without the Aesthetics policy getting a 50%ish modifier shouldn't be hard so that's really 5610 Tourism. It'll also boost each late game Musician tour by 680 so 5 of those is another 3400 Tourism for 9010 total...and this is being pessimistic about several things, including the Tourism modifier. So you'd need to generate 901 Tourism *without* Broadway for skipping Broadway to be better...and even assuming only 4 (with Broadway) late game tours means you need 833 Tourism without Broadway.

Now that's clearly possible to do in a good game (note that I haven't factored in World Religion here either which obviously bumps up the value of both strategies so I think it'd probably stay roughly equal, except with higher raw values for both)...but if you're in a position of pumping out 1000+ Tourism without Broadway you're almost certainly going to easily win no matter whether you built Broadway or not. Also, I apologize in advance for any math errors I may have made, not fully awake yet.

Generating 2 extra GM (3 with the free one from Broadway since it also increases counter) is huge since it raises the counter by 300 gpp. You're likely only to get one instead of two after your tourism maxed out.

Except you can time it so that you give birth to the 400 gpp Musician right after you top off Tourism and then you "only" need 500 gpp for the second...when you're presumably getting 9 base with at least 25% Aes/25% tenet/25% NE and hopefully at least one of Arts Funding, Pisa, and Garden. So 18+ points per turn is extremely likely translating into 27ish turns for the "second" Musician.

The other argument against Broadway is that you usually want Eiffel Tower in modern era to counter ideology pressure, and that you also have to build Statue of Liberty. If you also build Broadway, it has a certain opportunity cost to it since you can lose it to AI and prioritizing it delays other buildings. Very often my cities will still be pumping museums/archaeologists in the modern era and unlikely I'll build these in non capital anyway.

If you're Oxfording into Radio you have a decent chunk of time between Radio and Replaceable Parts for SoL, can also save/produce an Engineer for one of those 3 Wonders to help. Not certain when you're planning on getting Archaeology (right after Radio, perhaps? Or after Plastics?) so hard to say on that...but your non-capital cities can be making the Archaeologists. And on a OOC the Archaeologists matter a lot less since you have far less potential slots to fill and only one city for potential Landmarks.

The number in his calculation double counted and incorrectly increased the theming bonus by NVC/airport/hotels so it was incorrect.

Whoops.

I rarely go for the unit exp buildings (barracks etc). This might be a wrong go but i find them extremely useless. I tend to attack alot of barbarians through my plays so my units are already on a good level and building those wont change much for me. Especialy when you start popping up leveled units

They are generally useless in non-Domination games, yes.
 
I rarely go for the unit exp buildings (barracks etc). This might be a wrong go but i find them extremely useless. I tend to attack alot of barbarians through my plays so my units are already on a good level and building those wont change much for me. Especialy when you start popping up leveled units

In the later game (i.e. Renaissance & later) the +exp buildings become invaluable, IMO. In particular, barracks + armory opens up a whole bunch of super-useful promotion combinations for newly spawned units. All siege units can start with ther promotion giving them +50% vs. cities. Melee ships can start with +1 movement, Privateers can start with Supply, and melee land units can start with medic.

Most importantly (for me), ranged ships can start with 2 promotions, which makes +1 range only 1 promotion away, or logistics (+1 attack/turn) only 2 promotions away. I usually skip +1 range and go for logistics.... ranged ships *really* start to rock when they get that promotion.
 
And on a OOC the Archaeologists matter a lot less since you have far less potential slots to fill and only one city for potential Landmarks.

I think that is the key. I mostly play wide culture games with conquest. GM themselves have even less weight since capturing additional capitals/wonder cities is just that much better. And I usually build/capture enough archaeologists to get every dig site on the map and wide games usually have a large amount of landmarks also. I also sometimes will settle a city just to get a landmark and rush buildings in the city to get it up very quickly. The best way to get ideology is through factories for wide and I get archaeology immediately after industrialization. Usually around the time of WF also.
 
I think that is the key. I mostly play wide culture games with conquest.

Yeah, Broadway's benefit drastically decreases the higher base tourism you have.

I personally don't see a point in conquest enabled Culture victories, feels like I might as well go Domination, so when I'm discussing Culture victories I'm referencing a 1-4 city self-founded empire. If you conquer the lands/capitals of any Civ with significant wonders/culture then you can basically do whatever you want and still easily win a "culture" victory.
 
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