Worst Civ?

[danjuno]

Taking into account Uniques, Leader Traits, and Starting Techs, what is Civ4's worst Civ, assuming all other things are equal?

I want to ding Arabia and Byzantium for their starting techs off the bat. Mysticism is nice if going for an early shrine economy, but at the end of the day, it's not a worker tech, so you are gambling on an early religion while sacrificing a worker tech in the process. The Wheel is arguably the weakest worker tech by my reckoning, except perhaps fishing on account of its map dependency, but most map scripts have at least a decent amount of water. However, they have a few tricks up their sleeve to compensate. Both have SPI leaders, which any veteran can tell you is quite nice. Saladin gets screwed on his second trait with PRO, but his uniques are quite nice, if not as game breaking as some others. Justinian gets off somewhat better with IMP, which is useful for early-game land grabs. His uniques are also good, especially Cataphracts. I still dislike that starting tech combo (no food), but know I'm not so sure of these two.

Japan is the next candidate that occured to me. Tokugawa usually gets a lot of flak for AGG/PRO, since there's no economic benefit aside from the minute trade bonus from cheaper castles from PRO. Fishing and The Wheel leaves you at the mercy of the map, which is asking for trouble. The Samurai for all its IRL cultural legacy, is a fairy unremarkable side-grade. The best melee UUs (Praets, Dog Soldiers, Quechas) tend to be early-game since they can snowball easier. Shale Plants also get dinged for being a late game unique.

I have a few others in mind, but the chinese food just arrived , so I'll come back and check the thread later.

 

[lymond]

The thing with civs like Arabia, Japan, and Byz is that while they have the wheel, which is not that bad a starting tech considering it is the most expensive level one tech, is that pasture starts are brutal for them. I think of Ag/TW as one of the best starting combos nexta Ag/Mining. Myst/TW is just really sucky though. I always like SPI anytime, but Arabia and Byz don't have much going on otherwise. Japan is generally considered the worst, but I'd say Chuck gives him a run for his money.

 

[Fippy]

Cataphracts roll over any AI below Deity, so i don't see how Byz should be in this
SPI and IMP combo is good as well. Hippodromes are not among the best UBs, but 3 happy for 10% culture can be handy.

Arabia is prolly worst on hard maps..you only have SPI but that doesn't help much until later in the game.
Toku at least has an advantage on Axe rushes & coastal starts, Charlie builds faster settlers and can tech AH first (and IMP also helps with an early rush).

 

[migalhone]

Taking into account Uniques, Leader Traits, and Starting Techs, what is Civ4's worst Civ, assuming all other things are equal?

I want to ding Arabia and Byzantium for their starting techs off the bat. Mysticism is nice if going for an early shrine economy, but at the end of the day, it's not a worker tech, so you are gambling on an early religion while sacrificing a worker tech in the process. The Wheel is arguably the weakest worker tech by my reckoning, except perhaps fishing on account of its map dependency, but most map scripts have at least a decent amount of water. However, they have a few tricks up their sleeve to compensate. Both have SPI leaders, which any veteran can tell you is quite nice. Saladin gets screwed on his second trait with PRO, but his uniques are quite nice, if not as game breaking as some others. Justinian gets off somewhat better with IMP, which is useful for early-game land grabs. His uniques are also good, especially Cataphracts. I still dislike that starting tech combo (no food), but know I'm not so sure of these two.

Japan is the next candidate that occured to me. Tokugawa usually gets a lot of flak for AGG/PRO, since there's no economic benefit aside from the minute trade bonus from cheaper castles from PRO. Fishing and The Wheel leaves you at the mercy of the map, which is asking for trouble. The Samurai for all its IRL cultural legacy, is a fairy unremarkable side-grade. The best melee UUs (Praets, Dog Soldiers, Quechas) tend to be early-game since they can snowball easier. Shale Plants also get dinged for being a late game unique.

I have a few others in mind, but the chinese food just arrived , so I'll come back and check the thread later.

Justinian/Byzantines: has OK traits, an average UU and a good UB, since Horses are easier to come by than Dyes. The starting techs leave much to be desired though, as with any leader that starts without food techs. IMP/SPI allows you to get cheaper settlers to expand faster, and SPI gives you increased flexibility, both in diplo and how to shape your empire.

Saladin/Arabia: indeed similar status as Justinian/Byzantines. Resourceless Knight UU is a plus for me, even if i don't usually get Knights. The Madrassa opens some unique shenanigans so it's a plus as well. SPI/PRO is underwhelming though, and comparing to IMP/SPI, to me IMP is better to have than PRO, since it's easier to feel IMP as a trait than PRO.

Tokugawa/Japan: Starting techs aren't bad, at least in coastal starts you can start with a workboat. The Samurai is a Maceman with 2 First Strikes, which while not gamechanging is nice to have. Shale Plant, while a late game UB, has some nice perks to it (doesn't require coal, extra boost to hammers). The trait combination gives you more survivability against barbarians, as well as arguably the best gunpowder units. So while i recognize it's a "meh" choice of leader/civ, it's mostly due to the fact that other leader/civ choices are more convenient to play with. Also, it's the best leader/civ choice to learn the mechanics and strategies of this game.

If you compare every UU to Praetorians/Quechuas, you'll be dissapointed more often than not. If you compare every UB to Terrace, you'll be dissapointed more often than not.

My point is, some leaders/civ choices have more scenarios/possibilities where they can shine, and others are more limited. This is a thing of beauty and balance, how the combination of traits, starting techs, UUs and UBs can open different scenarios/possibilities.

 

[migalhone]

Cataphracts roll over any AI below Deity, so i don't see how Byz should be in this
SPI and IMP combo is good as well. Hippodromes are not among the best UBs, but 3 happy for 10% culture can be handy.

Arabia is prolly worst on hard maps..you only have SPI but that doesn't help much until later in the game.
Toku at least has an advantage on Axe rushes & coastal starts, Charlie builds faster settlers and can tech AH first (and IMP also helps with an early rush).

On hard maps, comparing to Toku and Charlie, Saladin has the resourceless Knight as an asset. It still doesn't bode well against what Toku and Charlie can do in these situations.

BTW the Hippodrome provides 1 per 5% culture, so this is even better. Although not being able to assign citizens as Artists should count as a negative if you're aiming for a Cultural victory? Overall it's a good UB, and one that kind of strays off the base building purpose. If more UBs were like this it would be great IMO.

 

[danjuno]

Yeah, what we're really talking about when we refer to a character or faction in any video game as best/worst is the most consistently/inconsistantly effective.

I grouped Byzantium and Arabia together on account of the lack of food techs, but the more I think about it, the more it feels like neither really clench the bottom spot, and Byz in particular seems to compensate for the lack of food techs. Saladin still feels like he offers more of a challenge, though.

The Samurai isn't bad, it's just not enough compensation for everything else you lack when picking Toku.

 

[lymond]

Personally, I like Toku and he does have a second UU

 

[migalhone]

Personally, I like Toku and he does have a second UU

2nd UU? I don't get it. What could it be besides the Samurai?

 

[lymond]

2nd UU? I don't get it. What could it be besides the Samurai?

it is unofficial, ofc...but their stock rifles come outta the gate pretty loaded

 

[drewisfat]

Toku has 3 UUs. One of only two leaders that starts with an AGG warrior, the samurai, and 1 pop drafted rifles with 3 promotions.

Time to defend the sacred honor of Tokugawa.
1. Starting techs: Fishing, TW. As noted, weakness with AH starts, but you could make the point for any civ that doesn't start with fishing that there's a weakness to seafood starts. The worst starting tech weaknesses are myst no IND and hunting w/ AGG and he dodges both of these pitfalls.
2. Traits: PRO/AGG, slightly awkward at the start of the game: do I defend against Monty with axes or with archers? But towards the end of the game both of these apply to gunpowder units. Drafted units start out with guaranteed 3 promotions and 4 with vassalage.
3. Uniques: Both of Toku's uniques are good. Samurai aren't a maceman with 2 first strikes. They're a maceman with combat 1 and 2.5 first strikes. They're a very good unit. Sure shale plant comes late, but the hard games go late. I like the assurance of getting +10% hammers late game in the same way I like the assurance of getting +10% beakers late game with Wang Kon. Look back through the list of UBs... these are better than most.

With avg starting techs, below avg traits, and above average uniques I am genuinely confused why Toku is in the running for worst leader. I think it's because people try to win Liberalism every game and with Toku that's like trying to hammer a square peg into a round hole. He has a solid plan, it's just not the normal plan. He's one of two leaders that start with an aggressive warrior. AGG then obviously buffs samurai, and both AGG and PRO buff the 1 pop whip rifles. PRO also synergizes with espionage, which is what you want for samurai to really shine. If you use siege + x, the siege does the heavy lifting and the x doesn't matter. Instead rely on wall destruction/city revolts with as many city raider samurai as you can get. You can roll through enemies with 10 samurai and a pike. The dream is to use samurai to hit someone with a bunch of wonders and use all the free GPP to fund consecutive GAs to get Rifling quickly. He's a good leader on pangea, and he's not terrible in isolation on account of aggressive and shale plants.

Saladin otoh is a contender for the worst. Knights are a bad unit like maces, but the bonus given to knights here is not enough to salvage them. Cataphracts are more than twice as good compared to knights than Camels are. The math of that claim:
Cataphracts - 12 base str + Flanking I + Flanking II = 12 str, 30% extra withdrawal, FS Immunity.
Camels - 10 base str + Combat I + Combat II = 12 str, 15% extra withdrawal, FS Immunity.
All the assumptions here are in the Camels' favor. Cataphracts lack FS immunity, so flanking is reasonable on them despite the higher base str. Of course, if you think otherwise or know you're not hitting FS units they improve even further compared to camels, it's just less of an apples to apples comparison. Further, if you assume 3 promotions that extra combat is then 1.2 on cataphracts and only 1 on camels.

The only thing the camel has going for it is that it doesn't require a resource. That's worth *something* but I'd never build camels if I did have horses. +15% withdrawal alone isn't enough to justify how inefficient guilds is, while the Cataphract and Samurai bonuses are that good. Spies are a good idea with all of them. Madrassa isn't a good UB. +2 culture only after you're already able to pop borders is meh and +2 priest slots is just daring you to play foolishly.

Starting with the worst my bottom picks are: Hammurabi, Boudica, Saladin and Brennus.
- Hammurabi is AGG/ORG, the worst trait combo in the game. The only thing going for him is starting with an AGG warrior. The bowman is a worthless UU. Monty doesn't kill you with an axe rush because your archers aren't good enough. He kills you with an axe rush because you don't have archers. And with AGG no hunting, you're not very tempted to grab archery. Shaka doesn't kill you with swords because the swords are too good, he kills you with swords because you got hit by catapults first. PRO archers are more useful than bowman. Bowman can't fighto ff barb archers better than vanilla archers. Bowman can't choke an AI off metal better than vanilla archers. The garden is meh. Pretty rare to want both happiness and health in more than your capital - I prefer the shale plant. TW/agriculture aren't bad starting techs, but they're not what you want if going for GLh, and I count easier GLh as one of the few selling points of ORG. Hammurabi has no synergy and no plan. It's also unfortunate to take Hamm out of the pool of available AI leaders because he's peaceful and wonderful, while taking Toku out removes the hardest AI to kill early game who notoriously won't OB with you.

- Boudica with AGG/CHA and a melee UU has a clear plan, it's just a very bad plan. CHA leaves you one short from guerilla III gallics. Close but no cigar. Unless you wind up defensively farming a GG very early game, you need vassalage, and that's late enough that you need to upgrade those gallics to maces. It's doable but it's dependent on a strong commerce map. The worst thing about Boudica though is the starting techs. There are two big things to avoid with starting techs: mysticism without IND and hunting with AGG. Boudica has both. She has the worst starting techs in the game. The Dunn is a lie that in practice only gives guerilla to archers. That's not better than just another archer, so you need a situation where you can utilize a wall defensively and then utilize hills. Good luck.

- Saladin has already been mentioned. His plan is religious stuff with priests but that just isn't competitive.

- Brennus basically abandons the Celtic plan/uniques completely and he's better off for it. SPI/CHA is an average trait combo. But he still has bad starting techs and the distinction of having the most useless uniques in the game.

 

[Fippy]

SPI + Cha just average
Brennus running for worst always makes me veto.

Toku Rifles well..PRO adds 1 first strike chance while attacking (or defending outside cities), big whoopie

Peoples have their favoured playing style, and forming opinions around that is fun.
Some will say Bowmen also help with defending cities early, cos AIs never attack without metal units. So why not take ORG + Bowmen instead of PRO.

Samurais are okay..but i don't see how the Toku package comes close to having 2 very useful traits like SPI and CHA. They help in every game.
I could argue how CHA also creates UUs faster, and here you can pick which promo you like. Nope? Imo on the same truth level as Toku's famous Rifles.

 

[drewisfat]

He was 4th worst* and yes SPI/CHA average. No FIN/IND/PHI is pretty much going to lock you into average at best.
PRO archers outperform against catapults, which is the real threat the AI pose.
Part of the synergy with Toku's rifles comes as a follow-up to a samurai push: you have spies left over (perhaps even PRO castles) and a bunch of cities to draft from. So nationhood becomes a rly great civic and your rifles do not need cannons alongside them, at least at the start.

If I wanted to be mean I'd point out that SPI/CHA are conflicted on whether you want to rush monarchy. SPI says no anarchy! CHA says no need.

 

[Fippy]

Just personal opinion at this point, if you ask Lain he would prefer both SPI or CHA over IND
Imo both of Brennus traits border towards very good, which in total makes an average rating look unfair.

 

[danjuno]

Celts were the next that occurred to me. What are those uniques?

I suppose my concern with Tokugawa is how to get him to the late game where he's most effective.

I'm curious about your take on ORG. I've heard old hands say they prefer it, but you seem to differ.

 

[MassRiflemen]

For me its the map settings before the game starts, the most important settings are:

1. Tech Trading or No Tech Trading (NTT).
2. Pangaea, Continents, Lakes or Arch.
3. Vassals or no vassals.
4. All victory paths enabled or Domination/Conquest/Culture only.
5. Map Speed
6. Map Size/Type
7. Inca doesn't count (your grandma can win with Inca), and Rome will be ignored as well, since Praetorians change how the game is played.
8. You're allowed to reroll coastal starts for civs that start with fishing.
9. Deity is a different game, and is therefore also excluded from options (I don't even think Deity is possible without tech trading lol).

I will assume the following of the above conditions:

No Tech Trading; NOT-Archipelago; No Vassals; Dom/Conq/Culture only; Huge; Marathon.


Exhibit A1: Boudica Domination (Agg/Char)

With no tech trading, Charismatic becomes much stronger. The +2 happiness from Char in the early game in Marathon goes a long a way, because the early game lasts a very long time due to the lack of tech trading. This provides you with a quasi-financial trait by being able to mature two extra cottages per city early than any other civ.

Aggressive is also amplified by NTT. Masses of Shock axes, formation/healing spears and CRIII+Cover Swords from Aggressive can rock the AI civs past 0 AD. Boudica becomes an incredibly stronger leader without Tech Trading enabled. Her units promote insanely fast. Her best strat is to Oracle CoL to chop and whip courthouses as she takes city after city. Her traits are S tier in these map settings.

Exhibit A2: Isabella Spi/Exp

Cover Muskets + Formation Pikes + Supertrebs (make citadels in the settled GG cities) for the first conquest, conquistadors for the next two conquests. Best Civ for Continents with coastal starts, three seafood starts allows you to spam workers, while not needing workers immediately (fishing boats will suffice until you get the food techs), allowing you to go AH before Agriculture to reveal horses.

All remaining exhibits concern Protective civs.
Exhibit B: Charlemagne/Justinian Breakout (Imp/Pro)

Although he's not industrious (reroll starts without stone), you want Great Wall+Mids. Oracle slingshot monarchy and self tech feud and CoL. Bait wars and farm GG's with your long bows and have on city build the Chicen Itza (build all border cities on hills) and use your great spy to steal techs towards his UU. You'll have 10-20 great generals by the time your have Eng. Switch to vassalage and theocracy and enjoy spamming Ultra-Landsknecht. Stay in Representation until Engineering, then go Police State. Use your left over spies to start revolts. Makes lots of catapults prior to Engineering, sac 1-2 cats per city to reduce longbow health. Whip order for captured cities: Walls--> Castle --> Rathaus (bring some works to chop into Rathaus). These cities will cost nigh zero gold to maintain. Your nearest two neighbors are doomed.

Charlemagne will do better than Justinian on Continents, since killing two neighbors on the same continent is essentially winning the game. If there's a runaway civ on the other continent, then his Rathaus allows you to spam Mining Inc/Sushi in every city and outproduce/out tech any AI below deity. This will not work on Lakes (you have no way to put down distant runaway AI civs on Lakes).

On Pangaea/Lakes, Justinian's Super-Cataphracts will be better (same early game strat as Charlemagne) since you play "Whack a Mole" and simply raze each AI civilization in their score order; the combination of Police State + Hippodrome makes war weariness non-existent for 5% or 10 % culture during the razing phase (which will last at least 100-150 turns).




Exhibit C: Sitting Bulb (Phi/Pro)

Get Stonehenge and chop/whip first 5 setters. Make one archer per city while fast teching math, chop the oracle and get metal casting, make forges, bulb machinery, takeover nearest civ with God Tier crossbows (promote cover and formation).

Self tech CoL suring this and chop courthouses, spam farms and switch to caste. Make Chichen Izta again, get Feud, spam longbows, go Eng, get castles, AFK 100-200 turns while longbow turtling, bulb your way to rifles and win the game (most AI civs will still be on Elepult when your draft 12 rifles per turn). Also get Statue of Zeus and GL, each AI will give you tons of gold for peace due the war weariness they'll suffer saccing 50-100 units into 20 Drill IV + Castle + Hill III Longbows (you can easily hold Cuirassiers if things go off script, since Chichen Itza doesn't go obsolete until Rifling.) AI's get literature very late in NNT, so you don't have to tech straight to literature.

Sit in Pacifism + Parthenon until Rifling, then go theocracy for extra oomph to the produced (non-drafted) rifles. Remember that Hill III + Drill IV + CDI superbows + walls/castle/chichen itza can hold off everything including cuirs.

You also want to set up a golden age chain with Sitting Bulb. Chop the Mausoleum, pop your first golden age when taj majal is half-done, taj majl is comples for second golden age, after which you pop a third golden age. During these golden ages you want to switch between caste and slavery, teching towards rifling, while building markets/grocers/banks and universities in each city. In your third golden age you go organized religion to assist, then back to pacifism right before it ends.




Exhibit D: Wang Kon Fin/Pro

The only leader that is guaranteed to win on Lakes Huge with 17 aggressive AI's on Emperor or Immortal.

His UU allows you to hit enemy stacks of doom without needing as many of them. He gets mids and stays in police state spamming his UU until the AI civs have elephants, by which point you should be turtled up with Longbows, riding your cottages to two era military advantage. Best thing to do is to pick a war monger ally (like Shaka or Monty) and declare war on every he asks you to. Never make peace (keep his enemies at war forever for the diplo pints and make sure you share his religion) and request a PA from them after you beeline Communism immediately after writing. Your tech advantage and good diplo will ensure Shaka/Monty accepts your PA.

Once he accepts the PA, end all wars. Spam machine guns and build railroads (use serfdom for railroads on Lakes, otherwise stay in slavery) before your next war too keep his cities safe. Use your financial trait to feed him gold to abuse the AI's unit upgrade advantage. Give him every city you capture, direct his research and attack targets.

Did another AI CIV start to runaway (you should see the signs of a runaway before its too late). Tech to infantry. Pop a golden age, bank 20k gold. Switch to slavery, nationalism, police state, theo. Draft all cites to Six, whipe all remaining pop to 1. March your stack of 300-400 protective draft Infantry to the runaway civ (you should have railroads) and start taking his cities. Keep these cities, because your original cities will be unhappy for the rest of the game. Give your old cities to Shaka/Monty. Right before you units STRIKE out, gift them to Shaka/Monty. Continue to direct his research and attack targets. Use your new cities with no unhappiness to give him air support (fighters and bombers).



Exhibit E: The Epic of Gilgamesh Cre/Pro

Vultures and Ziggurats = two dead neighbors for free (target neighbors with gold/gems to assist in the recovery). Ziggurats = EE, always chop the great wall with Gigs. Yu'll easily have 16-20 zigs pumping espionage points and two great spies before Renaissance era. You also want to chop Stonehenge if you're aiming for a cultural victory (which is assumed for this exhibit).

Since Ziggurats unlock with priesthood, he will always Oracle into Metal Casting in NTT games and bulb machinery. His early xbows aren't as good as sitting bulls, but as protective you can promote them to shock, which is essential since vultures suck at fighting axemen (Shaka/Ragnar/Monty/JC will ruin your day without early xbows) and Praetorians. With the Shock promotion they will attack catapults from behind your walls before axes/swords. Combat promos and shock will knock out chariots. Choose formation for xbows if the Khans are your neighbor.

Self tech castles (engineering) asap to keep your EE going. You want to conquer coastal neighbors since castles and harbors have good synergy (trade routes) and the early forge + Colossus from metal casting slingshot makes coasts desirable as well. The huge early game lead + Protective will let you safely achieve a Cultural Victory.


Exhibit F: Tokugawa Agg/Pro of the English/French/Native America/China

Your drafted Recoats/Musketeers with cover promotions smack AI's with longbows (no siege needed, just a spy or two for the initial city captures).

If your Native America or China, your crossbows will subjugate an entire continent.


Overall, disabling tech trading makes other traits/civs better and also increases the value/important of infrastructure. Protective allows you to use less units to defend while making buildings and bait wars for GG garming.

Aggressive AI increases the value of Protective since you need less defensive units to protect the side of your empire where your main army isn't, and they can one pop walls and castles in captured cities during conquest, which often get counter attacked by third party civs you war dec you in the middle of huge land grab.

 

[AcaMetis]

Gallic Warriors are Guerilla III units, Duns are extra defence on hilled archers and easy access to Guerilla II, which allows for quick movement across hills (basically defensive scouts, if you really want to scout the land). They're not completely worthless, but much more situational than, say, a Shale Plant's +10% and ability to trade away Coal if you really don't want the + or are able to get a great deal out of it.

 

[jnebbe]

Definitely Boudica/Brennus, worst starting tech combination in the game (Sometimes I feel like Id rather have just 1 starting tech than start with Hunting) and UU/UB that are extremely situational/near useless.

If we're talking least favorite ai leader that's also Boudica! Hate her however she's in my game

 

[Nick723]

I don’t get the Hammy / Bowman thing. Surely the bowman is a solid upgrade for an often used unit? More than can be said of many others? Starting techs are nice, and Org…isn’t Org on a similar par to financial when it comes to economic traits?

 

[lymond]

I don’t get the Hammy / Bowman thing. Surely the bowman is a solid upgrade for an often used unit? More than can be said of many others? Starting techs are nice, and Org…isn’t Org on a similar par to financial when it comes to economic traits?

Rarely ever build archers much less tech Archery - can't remember the last time I mighta built a Bowman but it is has been many years. Org is considered pretty meh actually. I like Hammy due to his starting techs, and his traits are at least so-so. Uniques are inconsequential.

 

[danjuno]

I seem to recall some old hands like @TheMeInTeam saying that ORG > FIN because of maintenance, but I don't recall the context. I think it was his Ragnar LP? I could be misremembering.