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Would anyone be interested in helping me create a Balkan wars (1912-1913) scenario?

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Creation & Customization' started by Kyriakos, Mar 30, 2009.

  1. Ozymandias

    Ozymandias I saw the Great Library burn.

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    I have a large (i.e., too big to scan), detailed (terrain, towns, roads, etc.) map for the area in 1912/13, stretching W=>E from Giamoc in Austro-Hungary to the equivalent of Constantinople and from N=>S from ~Belgrade and Bucharest down to about Athens.

    Find me a map approximating that and I can have it properly modified in a day or two.

    ... But I've yet to find the OOB ...

    Best,

    Oz
     
  2. tom2050

    tom2050 Deity

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    Wikipedia gives an ok OOB, doesn't go into tremendous detail by any account though, and leaves much to be desired as to where most armies where located exactly, but is good as a general guideline

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Balkan_War
     
  3. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    I am happy that you want to help with the scen :)

    Perhaps we should decide who will do what. I would want, ideally, to be completely editor-free, to focus on cities, resources and other graphics. First we need a map. I agree that the Odyseeus map can be edited to allow for expansion to the north and east. Then after the coastlines have been set, someone could fill in the terrain :)
     
  4. tom2050

    tom2050 Deity

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    I will done with the map layout in a couple days, I have 1/3rd of it done, map size is 180x180 (Same width as odysseus map, but slightly taller). I was going to use the already done odysseus map and just add to it, but w/o knowing what map was used as a reference, it was easier to start a new map from scratch.

    Whomever is going to do the terrain (part or oz), I will send along the layered Photoshop image I used (if you want it) along with the Grid Overlay I used so you can know exactly what areas correspond to the exact position on the map BIQ file. Unfortunately the map I used did not show terrain on it, but it is easy to layer another map on the Photoshop .PSD file (to make it a bit easier).

    The only reason I would prefer someone else to do the terrain (with more experience with making maps) is because i am completely unfamiliar with anything remotely related to geography, and would probably muck the whole thing up!

    I will be placing rivers, and major cities during the Balkan War period. (Primarily for ease of knowing what's where on the map for terrain placement). If possible, I will match up a geographical map as another layer on the map I used as well.

    Tom
     
  5. tom2050

    tom2050 Deity

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    Alright, the map is finished, but it seems a bit on the large size... 180x180 is probably way too big for a scenario such as this. It would be better off with a size of 120x120 IMO (or smaller).

    MapBalkansMini.jpg

    If this one is used, ALOT of units would have to be on the map to keep it from feeling empty. I can bust out a 120x120 or 90x90 in a few hours, but I'll wait to see what you all think.

    Tom
     
  6. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    That map looks amazing :goodjob: I dont know about its size though. Perhaps it is too big. On the other hand we mostly need the balkans, so there should be some room there. Do we really need Egypt?
     
  7. tom2050

    tom2050 Deity

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    Egypt? Probably not, I slightly miscalculated the width and was about 20 tiles to much in width. :) But was too far in to restart then. So Egypt made it in by accident. If you look at it up close though, it's quite huge. I will redo it, smaller at 90x90 size, and make sure Egypt stays out, it was supposed to end at Turkey while keeping a bit of Russia up top.

    Also, Rome wasn't able to make it in the above map, should I make room to be able to fit Rome in there? Just in case it is decided to include the Italian attack against Ottomans in 1911?

    Tom
     
  8. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    I think that Rome should be in, yes :)
     
  9. Ozymandias

    Ozymandias I saw the Great Library burn.

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    In which case Egypt and Libya should also be included.
     
  10. tom2050

    tom2050 Deity

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    Well the top of Egypt and Libya are included, along with the whole upper rim of Africa as was before. I made a mistake in my previous post, I meant I made the map too wide compared to the map I laid out to use as a reference, in which I accidently included much of Saudi Arabi (not Egypt). I have included Rome as well, map size is 90x120, and then we can see if that works well.

    Tom
     
  11. tom2050

    tom2050 Deity

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    The 90x120 map is completed. Approx. 75+ Cities and major Rivers are placed. Cities are more for reference than which cities will actually be in the game, but the cities placed are (for the most part) significant ones during the Balkan War period. Actually I finished quite a bit earlier, but didn't have time to post here. Whomever wishes to terrain'ize it, pm me and I will send the file on over. I can also send over the Photoshop file which shows the map I used with the Grid Overlay (same Grid as in the editor).

    BalkansFinal2.jpg

    Tom
     
  12. tom2050

    tom2050 Deity

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    I cut off the map too short on the east side, I forgot about the second Russo-Turkish war idea... if there was a way to 'add space onto the side of a map' it would be easy to fix, but as far as I know it would have to be re-done.

    By the way, what is your mod you are working on?

    Tom
     
  13. Ozymandias

    Ozymandias I saw the Great Library burn.

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    Hy Tom,

    Because I have a wargame map of the conflict, I could probably do a quick turn-around on terrain if you send me the .biq.

    My own mod's goal is to see how closely the Civ3 engine can be used to produce historically plausible results, despite there not being any way to, say, have Colonials separate from Great Britain. The mod's start date is 1071 CE for a plethora of reasons which I'll lay out once I start an "alpha" thread.

    Sadly, fairly severe illness is keeping my productive time limited - re: the Balkans War map, it's only that I have a ready source at hand that I can offer help.

    Best,

    Oz
     
  14. tom2050

    tom2050 Deity

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    Ok, map has been sent over to you.

    You know, I believe it is possible to produce AI builds which resemble historic results (using a variety of tricks to make AI want to produce units it would otherwise not).

    The only problem is the pain of testing :lol:... and the fact that unit values may not be able to be set to what you would prefer them to be, but at values that the AI would need so it actually builds them appropriately.

    Good luck with it, and let me know when you start the Alpha, sounds interesting.
    Recover soon too!

    Tom
     
  15. tom2050

    tom2050 Deity

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    Sorry for long post. City list so far.
    -Not certain all spellings are correct, names are from Balkan War period (not current day spellings).
    -Not every city should be included listed here, and portions of map are still 'empty'.
    -Cities in Austria-Hungary that may have to be removed are for the purpose of needing space to create possible sub bug war starters.
    -There are most certainly mistakes somewhere in this list, most were added as I made the map.
    So far cities listed on map/will be listed on the map are:

    Russia
    Ekaterinoslav
    Taman
    Kertch
    Teodosia
    Baktchiserai
    Bender
    Akkerman
    Kilia

    Austria-Hungary
    Jassy
    Chotin (will likely have to be removed)
    Suceava
    Grosswardein
    Erlani (may have to be removed)
    Temesvar
    Orsova
    Szegedin
    Buda
    Neithausel (may have to be removed)
    Stuhlweissenburg
    Szegedin
    Mohacs
    Szigelvar
    Vienna (may have to be removed)
    Agrani
    Novi
    Zara
    Spalato
    Serajevo
    Ragusa

    Italy
    Venice
    Rome
    Naples
    Benghazi
    Grennah

    Greece
    Lepanto
    Athens
    Nauplia
    Mistra
    Modon
    Monemvasia

    Britain
    Nicosia
    Alexandria
    Rosetta
    Damietta

    Libya
    Misratah

    European Ottoman Empire
    Prevesa
    Sarantaporo
    Parga
    Ioannina
    Banitsa
    Monastir
    Giannitsa
    Salonica
    Kilkis
    Skopje
    Prilep
    Adrianople
    Kirk Kilise
    Bulair
    Sarkoy
    Canea
    Candia

    Ottoman Empire (non-European)
    Gaza
    Jerusalem
    Jaffa
    Damascus
    Beirut
    Tripoli
    Antaki
    Tarsus
    Sis
    Karaman
    Akserai
    Kaisariek
    Sivas
    Arnasia
    Samsun
    Sinope
    Angora
    Akserai
    Eskishehr
    Akshehr
    Konieh
    Adalia
    Ephesus
    Smyrna
    Brusa
    Ismid
    Constantinople

    Bulgaria
    Phillippopolis
    Sofia
    Tirnova
    Nikopol
    Varna
    Silistria
    Vidin

    Romania
    Braila
    Bukharest
    Tergovist
    Weissenburg
    Hermannstadt
    Giurgiu

    Serbia
    Smederevo
    Belgrade
    Nich

    Albania
    Prishtina
    Durazzo

    Montenegro
    Cattaro
    Antivari (perhaps replace with Skadar)

    Cannot add
    Kumanovo (to close to Skopje to add)
    Lule-Burgas (to close to Kirk Kilise to add)
    Of course it is possible to replace...
     
  16. CiaranB123

    CiaranB123 That guy

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    Egypt belonged to the British Empire at that time... just saying
     
  17. tom2050

    tom2050 Deity

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    Thank You, I should have figured. :crazyeye:

    By the way, how should artillery in the game be used. AI makes horrible if any use of artillery, and having actual bombarding artillery pieces gives human player huge advantage. Occasionally the AI will bring an artillery piece out of a city, and rarely make it actually fire a shot.
    On the other hand, having only defensive artillery units makes no sense.
    Actual infantry could have defensive bombard values to emulate artillery, but this would not be able to simulate using artillery in an offensive manner.
    Whoever designed the artillery AI algorithms in this game at Firaxsis should be court marshalled for their bad programming.

    Perhaps I will do some tests to try to figure out when / and why the AI will very rarely occasionally decide to make it's artillery bombard. My guess is, that it will only if that artillery is stationed in a city, and an enemy unit comes up next to that city. Even then though, it does not sometimes.

    Tom
     
  18. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    In Yoda's scenario about the late Byzantine Empire the ottoman side uses its artillery a lot. It probably does not build new units, but in this scenario this isnt a problem since the artillery should be given at the start, and possibly no new can be built (it was being imported anyway). :)
     
  19. tom2050

    tom2050 Deity

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    I agree, I will have to check his scenario out. It will be interesting, there were a few planes here and there used as well. Oz said he will be done maybe Saturday (tomorrow) with the Terrain. Sometimes it takes a bit longer than expected though. It will be great to see the terrain'd map.

    I've starting reviewing some of the major battles of both Balkan wars to get a feel as to where armies where located and how large they were. Specific info is hard to find though.

    So no new units? Sometimes the AI throws it's units away quickly though, I'm not quite sure how well that would work for the AI. If the player took up all defensive positions, the AI will still attack them and take much greater losses. Perhaps something in-between would work... such as being able to build infantry but they would cost quite a bit (depending on how much 'production' the average city has).

    The draft option could be tried also as part mentioned.
     
  20. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    Good idea :) Infantry can cost a lot, and only inferior infantry can be drafted. In my mind the main conquest should be done with 1 unit-armies (1 unit loaded in the start of the scen into an army) and then have some auxilliary forces as single units. This is one way to do it. Another would be to have single units in large numbers, corresponding to the size of the armies. But i think that it would be better to have armies, so that the player would have to decide where to attack, as happened in reality.
     

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