would espionage be the method for stealing great works?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Nazrack, Mar 31, 2013.

  1. Nazrack

    Nazrack Chieftain

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    I gather that placing a spy in a city, establishing surveillance, and then that would be the method of stealing a great work?

    Perhaps also physically taking over a city. Since I've heard there are "sets" of art/music you can get bonus combo points from, one would think there's ways to move them around the cities of the world.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. theis81

    theis81 Warlord

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    I think more options for spies is a needed and I like your idea :)
     
  3. kingchris20

    kingchris20 Wisdom Seeker

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    Yes, definitely......there needs to be a popup menu when the spy has infiltrated and established surveillance to steal a tech or great work or something, that gives you a certain percentage chance of doing the deed similar to that of staging a coup.
     
  4. AriochIV

    AriochIV Colonial Ninja

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    It makes sense that you can steal a Great Work by capturing the city (unless the owner can move it out first), in the same way that you can "steal" a Wonder.

    But while I would like to see more options for spies, being able to steal Great Works seems like a game-breaking feature (much like city-state coups are now). Generating Great Works (which requires generating Great People) is too much work to allow the products to be so easily stolen. Especially when everyone gets spies for free and there's no reliable way to defend against them.
     
  5. micbucci

    micbucci Chieftain

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    This is an idea I would really like even though it might be complicated. There could/should be a problem with then displaying that stolen artworks. Maybe it could increase your culture while damaging relations and you can expect some sort of retaliation. Maybe capturing the rivals art through war then having to give it back years later because of some world congress vote. I would like to see how this would work. I would also go for the idea of selling art. Maybe add a black market or something, the possibilities could be endless. What do you think?
     
  6. AriochIV

    AriochIV Colonial Ninja

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    Also, while there's a history of nations stealing each other's art through conquest (hello, Nazis!), I can't think of any examples of nations stealing art covertly... because, as was mentioned, stolen art can't be displayed without revealing the theft.
     
  7. BobDole

    BobDole American Leader in Civ VI

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    Yeah, that's the problem. If you could put it on display, that'd just be a bit silly, and if you just took it out of circulation, that might be really strong. Spies need more to do, but stealing great works might not be a good idea.
     
  8. awesome

    awesome Meme Lord

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    I just hope the AI can use great works correctly
     
  9. blackcatatonic

    blackcatatonic Queen of Meme

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    This is a very good point, and why I think it should only be possible to steal GWs through conquest. If something is well-known enough to count as a Great Work, it doesn't make sense for someone who has stolen it to reveal themselves by then putting it on display - so covertly-stolen GWs couldn't realistically generate tourism, in which case, what's the point of them?

    If it were possible for spies to steal GWs, then realistically the only thing they should be able to do with them is sell them to a sleazy multimillionaire for a large sum of cash :lol: but of course that wouldn't outweigh the opportunity cost of losing out on the GW. The only consolation would be that at least the Civ you stole it from would be losing out on the culture bonus, but I still don't think that would make up for essentially taking a GW out of use.
     
  10. kaspergm

    kaspergm Deity

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    If spies can steal great works, that'll be yet another reason for me to turn Espionage off - except it is already permanently set to off. :vomit:
     
  11. seasnake

    seasnake Conquistador

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    in civ iv there was an idea to have spies kill specialists that sounds cool but then you realize that no one would settle a great person again. i wont use a great artist up on a work i cant keep, i'll just use them for golden ages instead.
     
  12. apocalypse105

    apocalypse105 Deity

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    hey i've just spend my great person to get a great work ow wait a spy just stole it there goes all my great person and my counter spy didn't stop him!!!!!

    If they make spies steal great works they should make counter spies 100% change of caching a enemy spy.

    I'm tyred of enemy spies stealing techs of me while my counter spy is just sitting there what happened?:sad:
     
  13. Nick Hynds

    Nick Hynds Chieftain

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    No. Like others have said you couldn't put it on display without revealing yourself AND by the time the spy could get to the work it would already be a major part of the civilization's culture.
     
  14. TheMarshmallowBear

    TheMarshmallowBear Benelovent Chieftain of the BearKingdom

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    I believe the "stealing" is nothing more than being able to transfer other people's artwork from their museums into yours.
     
  15. steveg700

    steveg700 Deity

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    From a verisimitude point-of-view, it's dumb. Nations may take works of art by force, but they don't send Ethan Hunt to break in and steal a painting from the Louvre so it can go on public display in the Smithsonian. That would be awkward. Then there's the issue of whether this is just for paintings and artifacts, or can you actually swipe a song or piece of literature.

    From a gameplay point-of-view, espionage is in bad need of an overhaul. It's just a woefully inadequate system that's unplugged from the rest of the game's mechanics and basic concepts of give-and-take. Since a civ can't do much with tech or sopols or other resources to become specialized at espionage, nobody can ever have a major leg-up on anyone else. It's a pointless tug-of-war where nobody can sustain an advantage in leverage.

    It would suck to expend a great person just to have your benefit of that expenditure yanked away by someone's spy (costing them effectively nothing to do so, whether they succeed or fail). Then again, due to the aforementioned lameness of espionage, you likely as not can just steal it back 10 turns or so later. And then it gets stolen again, and you steal it back, and you steal somebody else's painting, and they steal it back, and on and on.

    With the new trade route mechanics, maybe they'll do something similar with spies. They can act as invisible, non-consensual route between one of your civ and another.
     
  16. Buccaneer

    Buccaneer Deity

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    No, spies are already too ubiquitous, too powerful in stealing techs and nearly invincible. Why give them more power?

    The only way one should be able to steal Great Works is by military force.
     
  17. micbucci

    micbucci Chieftain

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    Your right, espionage does need an overhaul and this may not be the best idea to implement. Unless the rival civ can be bribed by money/tech/units or by demand into giving you their great art works there is a shot. Otherwise, I could now imagine this becoming more of a nuisance than anything.:wallbash:
     
  18. steveg700

    steveg700 Deity

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    Sure, why shouldn't great works be a negotiable item?

    For that matter, why shouldn't civ's be able to consensually "tour" their items in other civ's culture buildings?
     
  19. mdl5000

    mdl5000 Prince

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    What if these Great Works can be stolen by a player's own citizens, and your spies would have to get them back. Just look what happened with "The Scream."
     
  20. blackcatatonic

    blackcatatonic Queen of Meme

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    ...resulting in a 'You helped them recover their stolen Great Works' positive diplo modifier!
     

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